44 Percent

[ADS]

The latest chief examiners report is in for the December 2009 2391 exam.

44 Percent national pass rate

Here's the link if anyone wants a read:

http://www.cityandguilds.com/documents/2391-301-2009-12-final.pdf

 

[ianmacd]

Love the way they list the pass rate and fail rate. Like you can't subtract a number from 100.

 

[Bez]

I'm in favour of them keeping it tough, even though I haven't sat it yet. When, or if I pass, I want it to be a qualification that I have earned.

 

[ianmacd]

I'm in favour of them keeping it tough, even though I haven't sat it yet. When, or if I pass, I want it to be a qualification that I have earned.

Earned, paid for, whats the difference? Surely you earned the money to pay for the 3 day course to pass it?

I am joking BTW. IMHO 2391 should be harder and maybe require a minimum time in the industry before sitting it.

 

[Brian 157]

Interesting comments ianmacd, as a 2391 assessor I can tell you some of the candidates that have come before me couldn't subtract a number from 100...

To quote the C&G 2391 handbook; "This qualification is intended for experienced personnel working in the electrical industry. Although City & Guilds does not state formal candidate entry requirements, the qualification is not intended for non-qualified electricians and/or those who do not have experience in inspecting, testing and certifying electrical installations."

I think the C&G should set formal entry requirements, it amazes me that people without any other formal electrical qualifications are getting onto 2391 courses.

 

[ianmacd]

Interesting comments ianmacd, as a 2391 assessor I can tell you some of the candidates that have come before me couldn't subtract a number from 100...To quote the C&G 2391 handbook; "This qualification is intended for experienced personnel working in the electrical industry. Although City & Guilds does not state formal candidate entry requirements, the qualification is not intended for non-qualified electricians and/or those who do not have experience in inspecting, testing and certifying electrical installations."

I think the C&G should set formal entry requirements, it amazes me that people without any other formal electrical qualifications are getting onto 2391 courses.

Money always opens doors.

 

[Brian 157]

Money always opens doors.

Money used to open doors here, 2391 was "managed" by another section of the college but now we've taken control and only accept candidates who've been in the trade a while & taken the 17th or passed 2330 level 3 since 2008.

The real problem was after part P came in and NICEIC/Napit/ECA started to approve "domestic installers" who weren't really electricians (ie didn't have 2360 pts 1&2 or 2330 L2&3). Many of these unqualified guys were told to get 2381/2382 & 2391 to keep their approved status & took the 2391 practical, got to the contactor & said "I don't do 3 phase", I think some of them expected me to Say "that's OK, we'll skip that bit" & were surprised they failed...

2392 was introduced for these guys and others who don't have the experience for 2391, who can use it as a stepping stone to 2391.

 

[ADS]

I am joking BTW. IMHO 2391 should be harder and maybe require a minimum time in the industry before sitting it.

"I think the C&G should set formal entry requirements, it amazes me that people without any other formal electrical qualifications are getting onto 2391 courses.

The only problem with these arguments is that the 56% who fail aren't all unqualified peolple.

Example:

In my class of 15, 14 were fully qualified sparks with experience varying from 5 years to 25 years - but not experience in I & T.

Most said that they did installs etc. and someone else followed them round testing.

It was also obvious that the ones who had done testing, hadn't necessarily been testing the right way!

Seven of us passed

I don't think length of time in the industry has any bearing on the 2391 - unless that time has been spent in I & T.

More important is an understanding of what you are doing, why you are doing it and what results you should be getting.

If they do make a formal entry requirement, it should be that you do the level 2, 2392 first.

My opinion, anyway

 

[Brian 157]

I agree with most of what ADS says above, the key point is that understanding of what you are doing and experience of Inspection & Testing is important when taking 2391 as the course is designed for people with experience.

The only problem with making 2392 a requirement is that 2392 doesn't cover anything that isn't in 2330 level 3 and many will see it as a backward step to take a level 2 qualification if they already have a level 3, however, 2392 is a very good starting place for the inexperienced or those with older qualifications.

 

[ADS]

I agree, Brian.

I was forgetting that the 2330 lvl 3 covers a lot of I & T and fault finding.

You'd probably find that a lad straight off the lvl 3 2330 has a better understanding of I & T than a lot of Sparks who had been working in the industry.

Maybe, as you said, the 2330 lvl 3 as a minimum entry requirement and, if not, you do the 2392 first

 

[Brian 157]

Great minds think alike ADS, if only we could persuade the C&G, maybe the pass rate would improve!

 

[PBC_1966]

Like you can't subtract a number from 100.

Maybe 56% of the people sitting the exam can't.

 

[septiclecky]

Interesting comments ianmacd, as a 2391 assessor I can tell you some of the candidates that have come before me couldn't subtract a number from 100...To quote the C&G 2391 handbook; "This qualification is intended for experienced personnel working in the electrical industry. Although City & Guilds does not state formal candidate entry requirements, the qualification is not intended for non-qualified electricians and/or those who do not have experience in inspecting, testing and certifying electrical installations."

I think the C&G should set formal entry requirements, it amazes me that people without any other formal electrical qualifications are getting onto 2391 courses.

They do make one stipulation that is "no one under 18 can take it"

 

[madeinengland]

i have passed my 2330 level 3. i have done my 17th edition.i'm not in the trade as started doing this when current company i work for looked doomed and i needed something to fall back on if it went belly up.but 3 years on the company is good so i have stayed(got to pay the bills).i'm currently doing 2392.

2392 was introduced for these guys and others who don't have the experience for 2391, who can use it as a stepping stone to 2391.

how good is the 2392 as a stepping stone? what are the chances of passing 2391 if you have done what i've done so far?

is it a case of ''qualified electricians" generally being older guys and therefore have gained bad habits in testing, also being older are therefore not in the learning/exam mind set anymore.

or is it really THAT difficult.

 

[Brian 157]

Madeinengland, the 2392 is designed to teach people to test their own (new) work, similar to your 2330 level 3 practicals. 2391 is more about periodic inspections. The principles of the inspection & testing process are the same, your 2330 L3, 17th edition & 2392 will stand you in good stead for 2391.

You're right about bad habits with (some) older electricians, many older sparks didn't do testing, a supervisor followed them round doing the Inspecting & testing, leading to a mystifying of the process. Many older electricians I've known are scared of testing because they don't really understand it. You shouldn't have this problem, or have any bad habits.

I wish you luck with 2392 & if you put the work in you shouldn't have any problems progressing to 2391.

 

[madeinengland]

cool. thanks brian. as long as i wouldn't be wasting my time attempting 2391 i'll go for it.

 

[safedepth]

If they do make a formal entry requirement, it should be that you do the level 2, 2392 first.

My opinion, anyway

Unfortunately that won't solve any problems. My history is fairly well documented on this forum and I sat the 2391 referred to by the OP. So long as it is possible to take the exam people like me will continue to do so. Sitting 2392 first will only add another course and not increase experience in actual I&T. I did find 2391 one of the hardest course I have done, requiring a great deal of effort and revision. I have however, a reasonable amount of I&T experience in a previous life in a different environment. As I have often said I'm not a qualified electrician in anything other than name. I'm always learning. Doing the 2391 was a part of that learning process.

 

[choccy]

I agree, Brian.I was forgetting that the 2330 lvl 3 covers a lot of I & T and fault finding.

You'd probably find that a lad straight off the lvl 3 2330 has a better understanding of I & T than a lot of Sparks who had been working in the industry.

Maybe, as you said, the 2330 lvl 3 as a minimum entry requirement and, if not, you do the 2392 first

hi there i am doing the 2391 just now and this seems to be the case that the one's fresh off the 2330 lv3 have a better understanding and knowledge than the guy's who have been qualified for some tiO)me.

 

[ronnie]

It is a hard exam if you dont get the terminology correct you fail. Then if its not hard its not worth anything. As the old saying goes if at first.........