Bathrooms, Rcd's, bonding & lack of & grey area's in the regs.

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

Whilst carrying out a inspection it was noted no local bonding nor no Rcd protection was present in the bathroom . 2 circuits in the room, light & fan on one & shower on the other. All pipework was copper. The shower was new so should have an Rcd as the manufacturers instructions say. What would everyone code the lack of Rcd(s) and bonding. I know i am going to get the 3rd degree over this point from the owner so need to make sure i am not 'overcoding' it.

The flat was built around 83 and appears to have no main bonding, the main earth is 6mm straight into the PME head. Old Wylex board with wooden frame & no back but fixed to a brick wall.

Mcb's have been retro fitted but no Rcd's. The flat is ground floor but no Rcd's for sockets for equipment that may be used outside, let alone the current regs for all sockets and the buried cables. The owner knows a fair amount and questioning every point i have made claiming the installation is satisfactory as the regs are not retrospective. I have put him right about a few things but need to check the BRB before i answer all his concerns

All comments welcome.

Edit, i meant BGB

 

[NozSpark]

Well, if you are testing it to the BRB then you've got poblems from the start ; )

But for the lack of suplementary bonding and RCD I think I'd give it a C2

I'd have to check with the ESC guidance doc though

 

[Manator]

Very good question Slipshod, indeed there are many grey areas that are open to interpretation. However if we take C2 has the highest code we could give (given the description you gave), I think the tester could give very good argument for a C2 for the shower, firstly it is not installed to the manufacturer's instructions and the potential hazard from shock is greatly increased given the body will have less resistance when wet.

I would check the continuity of the pipes to an earth in the bathroom, and code C3 if required.

Shock hazard from showers are very low to be honest, but the tester having done his risk assessment suitable for the site could give a C2.

Remember though a C2 would be an unsatisfactory report.

If you can prove that the shower was installed after 2002 you may have a greater case for giving a C2.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

There would still be no Rcd for the bathroom lighting circuit though. I did check the pipework back to the MET, i think (didn't write it down)it was about .34 ohm .

I also cant decide if the bit about equipment that may be used outside is relevant. The car parking space is right outside the bedroom window.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:34 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:31 ----------

As Manator mentioned, there is a low shock risk, however the lighting is provided by a batton lampholder in Z2 with a damaged skirt. The ceiling is only about 7ft high

 

[Manator]

There would still be no Rcd for the bathroom lighting circuit though. I did check the pipework back to the MET, i think (didn't write it down)it was about .34 ohm .Would only warrant a C3I also cant decide if the bit about equipment that may be used outside is relevant. The car parking space is right outside the bedroom window.Feasable risk of vacuum cleaner being used for the car, C3 again

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:34 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:31 ----------

As Manator mentioned, there is a low shock risk, however the lighting is provided by a batton lampholder in Z2 with a damaged skirt. The ceiling is only about 7ft high

Just highlighted a few points for you in red.

Broken fitting C2 in my opinion, and an unsatisfactory report conclusion.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

According to the ESC guide its a C2 for the lack of bonding & Rcd in the bathroom

Edit, thats under .5 so maybe a C3 ?

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:51 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:47 ----------

And we both edited those posts at the same time

 

[NozSpark]

This is an exert from the EC best practice guide (page 15) which discusses typical C3 codes,

Absence of RCD protection for circuits of a location containing a bath or shower where satisfactory supplementary bonding is present

I think the relevant words are "where satisfactory supplementary bonding is present",,,, Slips has said tat there isn't any supplementary bonding, so it would raise this defect to a C2

 

[Steve3948]

Yes I agree C3 all the way, other than shower maybe, however it was not always a requirement you could say "Not fully compliant" due to age of the installation, but you say shower is not that old so I would C2.

 

[NozSpark]

According to the ESC guide its a C2 for the lack of bonding & Rcd in the bathroomEdit, thats under .5 so maybe a C3 ?

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:51 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:47 ----------

And we both edited those posts at the same time

IIRC you check between the pipe work, other pipe work & CPCs of the location, and if it's less than 0.05ohms then it's ok

 

[Manator]

I have not checked the guide, but if that is what it says it must be OK.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

IIRC you check between the pipe work, other pipe work & CPCs of the location, and if it's less than 0.05ohms then it's ok

Yep, i am aware of that, and am embarrassed i didn't at the time. I had the wander lead out checking the services when i passed the bathroom so tested a few pipes. Also, from the start thought well its not correct, C2 so didn't think about it until too late.

 

[Manator]

Wouldn't it be great if the regulations were black and white? If this is this then it complies, if this is this then it does not comply.

Never mind mate your in good company here and I am sure we can all come to an agreement of what should and should not be put on the report.

 

[Steve3948]

Many years back on an assessment I was advised that you may not always be able to see bonding without causing damage, so if you can prove by testing between and obtain satisfactory readings, you can record just that, no bonding observed but an adequate reading of Xohms obtained.

 

[Manator]

Many years back on an assessment I was advised that you may not always be able to see bonding without causing damage, so if you can prove by testing between and obtain satisfactory readings, you can record just that, no bonding observed but an adequate reading of Xohms obtained.

That's one of the reasons why you never see radiator earth clamps and the like these days, I hated installing them and the clients did not like all the visible yellow and green cable on a

 

[NozSpark]

Wouldn't it be great if the regulations were black and white? If this is this then it complies, if this is this then it does not comply.Never mind mate your in good company here and I am sure we can all come to an agreement of what should and should not be put on the report.

If the "Like" button was working then I'd have "Liked" that post,,,, but it isn't, so I won't

iPad2 iOs5 Safari..... Not the app!

 

[Manator]

My button works fine, just use the Star it works for Canoeboy.

 

[NozSpark]

Ahhhh,,, it's a Safari issue..

Works fine with Opera

 

[steptoe]

its not the app,

just the apple!!! :slap

works fine on Android........

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

Many years back on an assessment I was advised that you may not always be able to see bonding without causing damage, so if you can prove by testing between and obtain satisfactory readings, you can record just that, no bonding observed but an adequate reading of Xohms obtained.

In this case that may be ok between pipework but not between each cpc of the two circuits & pipework

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 22:50 ---------- Previous post was made at 22:36 ----------

I just noticed another point the owner is not going to be happy with. The shower pull cord switch is mounted just outside Z1 in a window recess so its in Z2.

 

[Manator]

In this case that may be ok between pipework but not between each cpc of the two circuits & pipework---------- Post Auto-Merged at 22:50 ---------- Previous post was made at 22:36 ----------

I just noticed another point the owner is not going to be happy with. The shower pull cord switch is mounted just outside Z1 in a window recess so its in Z2.

Are you still there? For heavens sake man its past 11pm.

.