Calling all reg-heads

[kme]

Scenario:

A pub we do quite a bit of work for has weddings in the summer; usually in a marquee he hires in; so last year he had us put in a local supply (TN-S, 32A commando on o/s wall, with adjacent isolator; fed via 32A MCB & 100mA time delayed RCD. The company he usually uses has their own board in the marquee, loaded with RCBos.

I went down this morning, to verify the safety of the wiring, and connect to his supply for him. The marquee was supplied by a company who are friends of the bride & groom; nowt to do with the pub.

They`d left him a 16a commando plug, running into the marquee, where it went into a splitter. One outlet has a 4 way extension lead on the end; the other goes into a metal clad dimmer switch; then on to 8 no. 100w floor standing lights, daisy-chained together. The lights appear to be "for purpose", with commando sockets mounted on `em.

Me not too happy with this. Not compliant with 711 for a start.

So what we`ve done is twofold:

1. Drop the supply MCB to a 16A; change their plug to a 32A to fit our supply (I`ll change it back before they come for their stuff.)

2. Remove commando from 4-way extension, and put a 30mA RCD in-line, to protect the s/o. Max Zs is fine for the 16a, but I need to give MY customer a bill, with justification for passing this on to the marquee people.

Apart from citing non-compliance with sec. 711; failing to provide 30mA protection for s/o for use outdoors, no "local" isolation (15m away on the wall of the building), does anybody have any other thoughts on points that could be made against these people? (note: they DID leave a plug-in RCD with a length of arctic cable & 16A commando socket on it - so I suppose technically we could have plugged that in inside the pub, to provide 30mA cover - but I don`t like the lighting, bar supplies & disco all coming from 13A - I think it`ll be a bit touch & go on load.

Your thoughts please.

KME

 

[Riggy]

Sounds like you're on sticky wicket there matey.

I wouldn't be happy with it myself, but from what you describe, on a TNS supply, if you'd used the supplied RCD, it would have complied.

I rather think you have just done some voluntary work!

 

[NozSpark]

I'm afraid if I were the marquee co. then I wouldn't pay your bill.

They have suppied a 30mA RCD protected supply lead, you chose not to use it!

Local isolaton can be provided by a plug and socket.

However in your favour they might be overloading a 13A supply,,, but TBH 16A isn't going to be much better - if any, won't a B16A 60898 trip before a 13A 1362???

 

[Andy™]

16 to 16 with RCD, and 32-16 adapters come in useful for stuff like this

is this 4 way adapter 16- 4x16, or 16- 4x13?

local isolation can easily be achieved by unplugging something

but agree with above - if i supplied something, and you altered it without coming to me with your concerns, your invoice would be getting ripped up.

 

[kme]

Yeah - I think it may do (without looking at the curves in t`book).

But 711.410.3.4 calls for a time delayed RCD at the front of an install - the plug-in 30mA wouldn`t comply with this.

The structure is also held up with aluminium poles - so 711.411.3.1.2 may apply?

And, although I agree, in principle, with your comments about the plug-in Noz; tripping would not only shut down the bar & music; it would plunge the whole enclosure into total darkness. If somebody panicked and hurt themselves, or fell; I`m fairly sure they could sue the pub for failure in "duty of care"; and win.

711.52: the daisy-chain cables of the lighting are tucked under the flooring at the edges; and are rubber flexes.

711.55.7 may also apply; 1 4-way lead in the corner of such a large enclosure is hardly an "adequate number".

KME

Andy: its a 4x13A mate.

I suggested the landlord phone `em; his argument was that they`re 70+ miles away, and wouldn`t attend; and HE wanted HIS customers to be safe.

I know he`ll pay me; I`m just trying to help him recoup the cost.

 

[steptoe]

I think having a trailing lead from inside the pub to outside would be seen as a major H&S issue, esp as there is already a purpose supply for such occasions,

would the landlords insurance allow a temp supply from an extension lead ? now that a permanent supply is available?

the tent company should have made enquiries as to what they needed to supply to access your power point, IMO.

personally I wouldnt bother dropping the MCB, just provide a 32-16 commando adaptor, if they fail to provide protection for their kit thats hardly your problem (is it?).

 

[Andy™]

711.410.3.4 states '... does not exceed 300mA'

so a 30mA does comply

as for the S type, thats only required if there are further RCD's. so if there isnt, then normal 30mA does comply with it

711.52 - if they are tucked under flooring, then it may well be protected agains mechanical damage

711.55.7 - 1 4 way lead may well be an adequate number. unlikely to be any sockets in use by general public, so if the only electrical requirement is 4 sockets, then a 4 way adapter could well be 'adequate number of socket outlets'

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 18:08 ---------- Previous post was made at 18:05 ----------

personally I wouldnt bother dropping the MCB, just provide a 32-16 commando adaptor, if they fail to provide protection for their kit thats hardly your problem (is it?).

if you 'provide' a 16A outlet, then it should be protected at 20A max. so if something did go wrong, then it would be your problem

 

[steptoe]

if you 'provide' a 16A outlet, then it should be protected at 20A max. so if something did go wrong, then it would be your problem

why so?

you are protecting the cable, not the equipment.

ok then, dont change it to a 16, leave it as a 32 and let them try and get their plug in,

 

[Andy™]

yes, the protection is to protect the cable. but the fact is, with ip44 connectors, the protection is at the start. if you supply a 16A outlet, than it should be protected at 20A at the most. not 32A

 

[steptoe]

ok, I get your point Andy, but why not 16A then?

Im still of the opinion its down to the supplier of the equipment to sort out the protection as its nothing to do with the installer

 

[Doc Hudson]

Did any of this portable equipment have any PAT testing stickers anywhere? Anything electrical I get from a hire shop has a sticker somewhere on it. I would have thought used in a wedding reception environment there are going to be a lot of unskilled people and children. Or did they provide any test certificates for dead testing of their equipment and leads? 711.6 requires it to be tested by someone, so if they haven't done it you could perhaps use that as grounds for your invoice?

Doc H.

 

[Sidewinder]

What about the small overloads of long duration stuff, can't remember the number, if there was sufficient loading?

 

[Riggy]

ok, I get your point Andy, but why not 16A then?Im still of the opinion its down to the supplier of the equipment to sort out the protection as its nothing to do with the installer

The supplier provided the protection (13A plug with RCD), KME chose not to use it, I understand why he did that, but it's a bit rich then to condemn the the supplier!

As I said earlier, I agree that what KME has done is better but I can't see why the marquee supplier would be even slightly interested in paying.

 

[steptoe]

The supplier provided the protection (13A plug with RCD), KME chose not to use it, I understand why he did that, but it's a bit rich then to condemn the the supplier!

no he didnt,

he supplied an extension lead that was deemed unsafe due to H&S and it being a trip hazard.

there is a purpose supply available, why doesnt he want to utilise that?

tent mans problem,

 

[kme]

Albert: I think that the Landlord`s duty of care would extend to the marquee and associated fittings; so it would be his problem. The suppliers won`t connect it up, ergo they`re not taking responsibility.

Doc: Good point - nothing had any stickers on it, and no paperwork for dead tests etc. were left with the kit.

Riggy: I do follow you`re argument; but I need to protect MY client (the landord) ; NOT the suppliers of the kit. As stated previously, if the DJ (who isn`t staff - he`s a member of the public, AFAIAC) has a faulty amp, or a customer spills a pint over his lights; the 30mA would trip, plunging the 200+ guests (& staff) into total darkness. I cannot ignore that fact - I believe it would be a H&S risk, to be honest.

KME

 

[Andy™]

no he didnt,he supplied an extension lead that was deemed unsafe due to H&S and it being a trip hazard.

there is a purpose supply available, why doesnt he want to utilise that?

tent mans problem,

running the cable into the pub to a 13A socket probably isnt much more of a trip hazard the running the same cable to the outside socket.

 

[steptoe]

it would be when it takes out the protective device for the ring final that may well 'blow' before the 1362 in the plug-top,

then no-one can see the extension lead.

makes you wonder though why anyone bothers fitting outside sockets, even for domestic use.

 

[jameseye12]

I got excited for no reason, I though this thread was called 'Calling All Rag - Heads'

Then I read further.....

 

[binky]

If it's on your premises, then it's your H&S issue because it's under your control. If you ever work in a factory/building site, first thing that should happen is a briefing on site safety issues.

Marquee company should also PAT test their equipment on enhanced inspection frequency. Got called out once to repair bouncy castle that had just been patted - commando socket was falling off.