Church wiring

[binky]

I have a church to possibly re-wire, the cabling being about 50 years old, so I just want to double check requirements:-

1/ is there any specific cable to be used, ie FP or similar  can't find anything in regs to suggest that, but it is a Grade 1 listed building circa AD1300.

2/ the church currently has no emergency lighting or fire detection (not sure they would want any in such an old building) so is this something that should be considered via a fire risk assessment?

3/ RCD protection, if I do a full re-wire is RCD protecting required on lighting ccts - I am assuming it is, but given propensity of church roofs to leak / damp issues, I would prefer not RCD lighting if possible. 

 

[Murdoch]

Probably worth getting in touch with the local conservation officer and see what they have to say. Grade 1 will have quite an impact I suspect.

do you have any other churches of the same era you could go and take a look at ?

 

[Andy™]

not done anything in churches, but from what i have seen, they are often wired in pyro. blends in more and doesnt look as obvious as a bit of white flex etc. but as above, check with various other palces first for any additional requirements

 

[binky]

Pyro used to be the cable of choice, but I think that isn't required any more?

Churchs are a bit unique in that they are considered 'living buildings' or some phrase like that, and not subject to the full constraints of normal planning. Any recnet modification shave been done in FTE, it was Pyro at some point, before being fully rewired about 50 yeras ago, with limited cpc in cabling, hence the rewire (apart from it affords the opportunity to remove 'handiwork)

'. 

 

[kerching]

I have wired loads of Churches BUT not for a few years now

each church should have an appointed architect...whatever he says GET IT IN WRITING AND SIGNED

there used to be a book....Lighting and wiring of Churches published by Church House Publications

used to be Pyro.....prob SY flex now

 

[Geoff1946]

There used to be a document, a standard of sorts, issued by some  ecclesiastical organisation.  It invoked normal wiring regulations and more.

I had a copy a number of years ago which I obtained whilst doing voluntary maintenance work in my local church. 

I can also vouch that it was comprehensively ignored, at least in the church which I supported, where there were some horrors to be found!

 

[UNG]

Haven't rewired a church in 30 odd years but the last two I remember one was bare pyro and the other one involved a special order of pyro as it had to have a stone coloured sheath to blend into the building fabric, seem to remember that required a minimum combined CSA sizes order of either 3000 or 5000m for them to do a one off sheathing

I think you need to speak to the diocese building people as well as the local conservation officer regarding the listed status. The diocese can be the more difficult people to deal with, my wife is on the PCC of our local church and got volunteered to organise a new noticeboard and sign a few years ago it was easier to deal with the council over planning permission than to deal with the diocese who wanted a lot more detail.

The big problem with churches is they only get a contractor in to do major works once every 5 or 6 decades in between it is mainly the church handyman that does any of the dubious additions and repairs

 

[OnOff]

Last time I used pyro was in a church hall for a governor who was big into his church and we weren't busy. 30 years ago...

Could probably sort you a spare set of tools if you go that route. I inherited a bunch a while back. 

Any use:

View attachment CCB_Electrical-wiring-installations-in-churches_Apr-2013.pdf

&

View attachment church-electrical-wiring-guidance.pdf

 

[Evans Electric]

We look after a couple of churches regarding repairs  , replace light fittings etc.     .  However one is modern , one  built in the '60 s  .  Just replaced a TP  X 100A  heating contactor in one .      Both are wired in T/E . 

All their major decisions are made by an area  C of  E   committee  ,  ask the priest to get a ruling   ,  it may be Pyro  for a Grade 1 listed  built in 1300  .  Around the time of the Black Death  .  

Don't think you need RCD on surface clipped  lighting mate .    Do they expect you to design it ?   Not really our remit unless you're a qualified Consulting Engineer with professional  insurances etc .    

 

[kerching]

As said before GET EVERYTHINH IN WRITING AND SIGNED

....and remember "Priests socks are the blackest of black, a special black. There is no black blacker. Some think they are buying black but it's a very very very very dark blue..." attrib. The Late Ted Crilly

 

[binky]

Any church I've worked in, if it isn't still Pyro from 1920s has been wired in FTE, but wanted to double check,.

Last time I used pyro was in a church hall for a governor who was big into his church and we weren't busy. 30 years ago...

Could probably sort you a spare set of tools if you go that route. I inherited a bunch a while back. 

Any use:

View attachment 10617

&

View attachment 10618

Brill, and I quote - 

"Any wiring system that complies with the IET Wiring Regulations could be suitable for use in a church. However the main criteria to be used when selecting a wiring system must be the potential aesthetic impact and damage to the building fabric impact."

So basically pyro is used becuase it is small. and more aesthetically pleasing. Fortunately I have nice easy cable routes and can hide cables with little problem . 

I can also vouch that it was comprehensively ignored, at least in the church which I supported, where there were some horrors to be found!

Oh yes - there's always one parishioner who thnks they can do electrics but is probably a retired bank manager  :lol:

 

[binky]

I think you need to speak to the diocese building people as well as the local conservation officer regarding the listed status. The diocese can be the more difficult people to deal with, my wife is on the PCC of our local church and got volunteered to organise a new noticeboard and sign a few years ago it was easier to deal with the council over planning permission than to deal with the diocese who wanted a lot more detail.

This will be put to committee, they have plans to change lighting but have appointed a 'specialist' contractor to do that (twice my price probably) Said contractor won't work in church becuase there's C2 / C3s in last EICR, which was done by a semi-competent sparky, eg installed single rcd for the entire church (its TN-S), 6mm earth with 16mm tails, main earth terminal was a bit of connector block floating in the breeze, and the inspection report....  :shakehead

thanks for all the replies  :Applaud :Applaud

 

[OnOff]

I vaguely remember something about pyro being hidden in the mortar joints somewhere.....

 

[kerching]

Bare pyro was preferable as it 'aged'   However bare Pyro cannot be run on Oak as the acid in the Oak will damage it

all surface cables had to be run in hardwood casing and capping

wall plugs for fixings had to be lead

dont drill through timbers

dont go in organ loft

...but it was a while ago

 

[binky]

Bare pyro was preferable as it 'aged'   However bare Pyro cannot be run on Oak as the acid in the Oak will damage it

all surface cables had to be run in hardwood casing and capping

wall plugs for fixings had to be lead

dont drill through timbers

dont go in organ loft

...but it was a while ago

whee on earth do you get lead wall plugs??? 

I love getting up the towers if accessible, can't beat the view!

 

[roys]

Used the old fibre, wooden plugs and of course the plastic wall plugs but never used lead wall plugs.

 

[Evans Electric]

Used the old fibre, wooden plugs and of course the plastic wall plugs but never used lead wall plugs.

I've used metal  plugs a couple of times .  We used to do a lot of Refurbs for Barclays .... their security company  , ( Well known national company)   asked us to install some conduits for them  in the strong room .    The plugs had to be metalic  to pick up any vibrations from drilling into the strongroom .   

 

[roys]

I've used metal  plugs a couple of times .  We used to do a lot of Refurbs for Barclays .... their security company  , ( Well known national company)   asked us to install some conduits for them  in the strong room .    The plugs had to be metalic  to pick up any vibrations from drilling into the strongroom .   

Interesting point

 

[kerching]

Alex plugs?   Expanded alminium plugs favoured by BT in the 70s 

 

[Evans Electric]

Alex plugs?   Expanded alminium plugs favoured by BT in the 70s 

Possibly ..... they were supplied by the alarm company  .   When I say conduit ...it was that tiny aluminium stuff  favoured by alarm  firms. 

You don't even drill the strong room block wall for a lighting conduit.......   from where you'd put the light switch  you change to a  flex & plug ,  feed cotton reels down the flex and plug in on the outside of the room .