Diversity & EV's

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So, we all know the OSG has terribly antiquated guidance for diversity so its pretty useless.

Can anyone point me at any guidance for if and how diversity can be applied to EV circuits?

I'm doing a design for a garage supply with an office in it and am thinking about how best to allow for adding an EV charger later

Thanks

 
I don't think I've seen any guidance on EV diversity. I think I wouldn't allow much unless it's clear the EVs will charged up at night only ie delivery vans or the old fashioned milk floats! 

 
IET guide says no diversity for chargers unless they have intelligent load limiting.

I wouldn't allow diversity because they can run at high current for any hours non-stop.

They are up to 50kW now also.

The other issue is that some I have had dealings with can be upgraded in software to increase the charging capacity.

The reason I got involved was that these upgraded chargers were having fires in the feeder pillars.

 
It is not allowed because it is too product specific at this time. Being product dependent, these things are down to the designer of the installation to decide like it is with all diversity and other engineering-based decisions.


Which is code for the IET have expensive books to sell 

More nonsense imho

 
Which is code for the IET have expensive books to sell 

More nonsense imho
I have got nothing to gain by defending the IET.

if you stopped being such a Luddite and looked into the requirements for the generation of standards then you might actually learn something.

BS7671 might be published by the IET but, BSI has joint responsibility for its production.

BSI as a member of the IEC has to abide by IEC rules and requirements.

I would suggest BS0 as a start for your education.

 
if you stopped being such a Luddite and looked into the requirements for the generation of standards then you might actually learn something.


Not being a luddite - all those organisations have their heads buried firmly in the sand and have no idea whats going on at the coal face

There is nothing stopping Joe Public buying EV chargers and there is nothing stopping Joe Public doing DIY installs - FACT

So these organisations need to wake up and stop trying to make things difficult. 

They are the ones that need to embrace new technology - forums (including this one) and youtube are the ways that poor information is spreading - and fast - so unless people making decisions like not including diversity information in BS 7671 are preventing huge numbers of sparks from growing their knowledge ........

If the people making decisions think they can lock knowledge behind "pay walls" they have got another think coming, unless sales of EV chargers are banned unless they are to competent people - and we both know that this is never going to happen

This thread has passed on some vital information about EV diversity, thanks to you, so lets call that a success, and fingers crossed future internet searches will educate more people because of this thread and its contents

I try and enhance my knowledge ......... huge numbers don't and never will - and that is the challenge.

 
Not being a luddite - all those organisations have their heads buried firmly in the sand and have no idea whats going on at the coal face

I try and enhance my knowledge ......... huge numbers don't and never will - and that is the challenge.
I think that is a good synopsis of the current state of the whole of the electrical industry

The days of the all round domestic, commercial, industrial electrician are fast disappearing as more and more sections of the trade are being hived off as "specialist" and you need a course an exam a mountain of specific documents and be assessed by some two bit scheme at some great expense before you can install anything.

I wonder how many electricians back in the day sat the 12th, 13th or 14th edition update exams

I find it amazing that you go to some sites where a done the course "specialist" has installed a piece of kit the installation doesn't even meet the requirements of BS7671

While some might consider 39p per page a bargain actually how many of the 192 pages are useful pages in the EV CoP

Expanding my knowledge of many areas within the industry is something I have done for as long as I have been in the industry, the one thing that has become very clear in recent years the cost of trying to stay up to date is rising more rapidly than inflation, exactly how much coffee and biscuits do these committees consume when they decide we need a new set of regs, guidance notes or a code of practice and not forgetting the exam to check you have read it and done the course

The regulation industry needs to wake up to the additional overheads it is continually placing on business and ultimately the cost to the customer, there seems to be hardly a month goes by without some new expensive document being published. While all these documents promote safety and best practice the customer is always cost conscious and if Fred down the pub is the cheapest he will get the job, Fred hasn't bought the books and he will bodgit and scarper once the job is done to "his standard"

 
I think governments see these regulatory bodies and training companies as job creation.`

I see  parallels in driving licencing. When I passed my test in the 1960s I was permitted to drive up to 7.5 ton vehicles, minibuses, tow trailers, etc  Only HGVs or PSVs required extra training.

These have been progressively split into separate groups with corresponding extra tests to pass. There is a test centre nearby, and I see specialist, (and presumably expensive) driving school vehicles, qualifying people to drive vans over 3.5 tons, tow mid sized caravans and trailers, etc  Across the country this must employ many hundreds or maybe thousands of people.

It's been common to blame the EU for over-regulation but I'm not convinced. I think the UK is a leader.

 
When I passed my test in the 1960s I was permitted to drive up to 7.5 ton vehicles, minibuses, tow trailers, etc 
Passed mine in the 70s

I think it also stated

track laying vehicles

invalid carriage

Hearse

Tractor 

motorbike under 250cc on L,plates 

I think I may still be able to ride a sub 250 motorbike on Plates, but I'm not sure 🤔 

 
I have to agree with the comments about Qualifications and courses, there are far too many of them and in the words of the song, 'it's all about the money' .

they say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and we all know how true that saying is, yet how many people out there do a short course in something and then consider themselves an expert! Yet a lot of these people still come out with stupid things like, 'that's illegal because it doesn't comply with BS7671', I'm slowly learning, it must be my age lol not to engage with idiots who make stupid comments, but do occasionally still bite at the bait

I recently spent a good 30 minutes explaining to one of these individuals that nothing in BS7671 was enforceable in law and that while it may be used as a guide, any prosecution would most likely be under something such at the EAWR or some other such regulation, it went well over his head, well that's another half hour of my life I will never get back, lol.

Recently I was looking at some old books, both mine and some others I was left by Tony, it was sad to see just how much us older electricians were taught and epected to deal with as part of our normal job and has now become classed as specialist . Also just how much more tools and equipment is used these days in comparison to back then, I  remember starting off and we had a megger and a test lamp, that was about it, a lot of lads had a continuity tester made out of a bell, a battery and some bits of wire, yet we still managed to repair stuff and find faults, if you worked for a bigger firm they often had an AVO, only one, which you could take out to a job only after signing a paper stating that in the event of  you losing or breaking it you'd commit hari kari!

Look at the kit the modern spark carries, now I know times have moved on and a lot of stuff is in use now that wasn't back then, RCD's for example, but as regards general day to day fault finding, on most stuff it's still the same old faults yet modern sparks seem to need an ever growing number of testers to fine a fault that we'd find armed only with a megger and a bell set. I  know a lot of us older sparks get fed up with the constant comment, from certain people, 'well it's only a few wires', which in essence is all our job is about. However for me, the two important bits to our job are  A) 'throwing in' the right size 'wires' in the right way, and B) knowing what to do when having 'thrown in' the said wires, it doesn't work!

I remember some years ago going for an interview for a job at a local electrical contractors, they'd been in the area as long as electricity and the  firm was run by three brothers. It was typical of the old what I call 'mill owner' mentality, every morning the lads would have to assemble in the office and 'doff their caps' so to speak as they told them how grateful they were to be in their employ.

I attended the interview with the 3 bosses, me on one side of a a large table, them on the other, ' it's nothing special, just slinging cables in on some newbuild houses' one of them said, in a rather matter of fact manner. Personally I think it was an attempt to justify why they were one of the worst payers in the area, I was only there myself as it was hard to find work at the time. Another brother then decided to throw a few questions at me, culminating with one, that always stays with me, 'if you were wiring an 18Kw load, what size cable would you use'? I thought for a second then replied that I couldn't answer, I hadn't got enough information. He provided me with the info needed and I worked out the answer in a minute or two, he then offered me the job!

I said I'd be happy to accept but there was one thing he should know beforehand, for the money they were offering I wouldn't be doing any more cable calcs, I would only be 'slinging in a few cables' I took the job, but only stayed a couple of months, it turned out that most of the other lads were capable of little else beyond slinging in a few cables, and most of my time was spent sorting out other peoples problems. I think that was the begining of the end of the 'proper spark', Nowadays there seems to be a plethora of sparks who are barely out of their initial training and the next thing they are doing whatever it is they now call the old 2391, and are running around doing I&T,  with very little  practical experience or working knowledge of the installations they are testing.

It seems to me that we are in a race to the bottom these days, the only thing that seems to matter is how much money can be extracted from someone in their quest to become an 'electrician', sadly their actual abilities and knowledge seem to be of little or no importance, as I said earlier, 'it's all about the money' !

 
 It was typical of the old what I call 'mill owner' mentality, every morning the lads would have to assemble in the office and 'doff their caps' so to speak as they told them how grateful they were to be in their employ.
 


That sort of thing was still common up until a few years ago.... you'd go to yard for start time, get your job cards, put rubbish from yesterday in skip and collect materials, have a chat and then clear off. Its no longer like that, older managers have retired or left, the younger ones reconised how much time was wasted and discouraged it, a move to a new building that didnt have the car parking for that many vans, or a skip reduced it some more, as did electronic systems to send job cards. The plumbing side now in the same building persisted with it for a while but I think 'words from the top' were said. Covid was the final nail for it, folk go to the yard if something has been delivered there that they need, otherwise there is no need to visit.

I'm of the opinion that fault finding requires a certain mindset, if you have it, you can look at something logically and work out what you need to do once you know what its meant to be doing, if you don't then no amount of training or support will help, but they might be very good at slinging in cables, or containment and I'm pretty sure that was always the case

 

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