DIY Cable from Bungalow to outside garage

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Please understand, that whilst we are willing to assist Diyers we have to understand your level of knowledge and capability, we are not elitists however we all have to understand that electricity kills and if you should misunderstand the advice given and subsequently have an accident who would you come after? It’s far better for us to assess your capability and if we are in doubt to advise that you obtain the services of a suitable electrician who can always give you advice based on what he/she has in front of them. 

 
That maybe has given me the answer I want. Why do some of you so  called tradesmen always want to be elitists? I'm in business myself and deal with customers all the time.I just wanted a bit of advice and constructive ideas....this seemed the ideal place for that as it had a DIY section. OK there were a couple of helpful posts but overall I've been left feeling a complete numpty how dare I even suggest doing anything myself. So Thanks but I'm off...you'll be pleased to hear I've found a helpful local sparky (well qualified) to sort this out.


Your sparky will assess all the points that have been mentioned hopefully, inspecting and testing the existing installation  before correcting any faults, select the correct components & cable to repair or upgrade etc. Most of this he'll do without involving you because it's second nature and he's trained and competent to do it. For people here to simply tell "you" how to do this properly they would have to touch on initial verification, testing and inspection, volt drop, safe isolation techniques, notifiable works etc. For instance did you know that running a cable under insulation for a certain distance and you may need to HALVE the current carrying capacity of that cable. Issues are frequently come across where  existing electrical installation cables, in a loft are covered up by masses of new insulation and the "shower" cable or whatever subsequently melts.

Get any of those wrong and you or a loved one could end up dead. Honestly, no one is being melodramatic or anything. I wish you all the best in getting it sorted

 
Case in point...security guard at work literally just asked me to OK his plan for a bathroom heater. Ground floor rented flat with an upstairs containing just a landing and bathroom. No socket outlets upstairs. He wants to fit a 2kW wall mount heater in the bathroom. His plan...run an extension lead from a socket outlet downstairs and site the outlet somehow on the wall "just outside the bathroom". Then plug the heater in and take flex from here "under the door" and into mini trunking to the heater above the window. Why is this wrong he asks! Foreign lad btw. Previously asked me if he could "pour water" into a burnt out 2G socket that keeps burning out to force the landlord to sort it 😂

Reminds me of my old man who was a British Gas technical rep. Went to a property. Large landing upstairs, 4 families, one in each room. 4 gas cookers on the landing fed from a gas fire point. All run in green garden hose! 

 
Case in point...security guard at work literally just asked me to OK his plan for a bathroom heater. Ground floor rented flat with an upstairs containing just a landing and bathroom. No socket outlets upstairs. He wants to fit a 2kW wall mount heater in the bathroom. His plan...run an extension lead from a socket outlet downstairs and site the outlet somehow on the wall "just outside the bathroom". Then plug the heater in and take flex from here "under the door" and into mini trunking to the heater above the window. Why is this wrong he asks! Foreign lad btw. Previously asked me if he could "pour water" into a burnt out 2G socket that keeps burning out to force the landlord to sort it 😂

Reminds me of my old man who was a British Gas technical rep. Went to a property. Large landing upstairs, 4 families, one in each room. 4 gas cookers on the landing fed from a gas fire point. All run in green garden hose! 
I hope you remembered to tell him that it's fine to install the heater in the manner he was thinking, subject to the following conditions being observed, 1, all plugtop fuses must be replaced with a cut down piece of 6mm roofing bolt, and 2, the earth pins must be snapped off the plugs and a piece of plastic jammed in the socket earths to allow free entry of the plugs. lol

The gas cooker made me laugh, I was working in a house and went to pull the cooker out, then realised it was connected with a lead pipe! The customer assured me it was fine to pull it out as was evinced by the fact that when we did get it out, the wall behind it was spotless, as was the floor underneath.(regularly cleaned)

A mate of mine was a gas fitter and went to do an inspection on a bungalow occupied by an old lady, a gas cooker in the kitchen and a gas fire in the living room. The gas fire was sat against a hearth as you'd normally expect, but it was on a steel frame with castors on, a bit like a butchered supermarket trolley. He was looking at this when the old lady noticed and proudly told him, "ooh, I see you're admiring my gas fire, my son did that, he's very clever, you see there's no heating apart from this and the rest of the house gets cold so he built it for me, watch, I'll show you how it works".

She rolled the fire away from the hearth and there was a load of garden hose coiled up behind it, with the fire lit she promptly wheeled it into the kitchen, "it keeps me lovely and warm when I'm making my tea, and I can take it into the bathroom too".

She was less than impressed when he disconnected it as dangerous, honestly, some people have no idea.

 
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Or is it the way people receive it? 

Whilst Murdoch may be direct with his approach what he says isn’t actually wrong, so why do people take issue with the direct approach- perhaps it’s the nanny state that we live in where you offend people before you speak these days? 
perhaps because it was a totally unnecesary response, and offered nothing constructive, especially not to a DiYer who has said he basically knows nothing.  No point harping on about earthing systems or bonding to someone who doesn't know what we are on about, but whatever electrican he gets in should be fully conversant with.

 
perhaps because it was a totally unnecesary response, and offered nothing constructive, especially not to a DiYer who has said he basically knows nothing.  No point harping on about earthing systems or bonding to someone who doesn't know what we are on about, but whatever electrican he gets in should be fully conversant with.
I think dealing with something like this is difficult, if nobody responds then we get accused of being unhelpful, but if we do respond with an answer they don't like we get accused of being stuck up, I wonder if this is just peculiar to electricians, because you get someone on a gas forum asking about a boiler or a gas fire and they get  told to get a gas fitter in and they accept it, a few months ago I was struggling with a radio network and asked advice on a radio forum, eventually I got 2 answers, both of them telling me I shouldn't be trying to do what I was doing and to call in an expert, end of subject. I think everybody is of the opinion that we make loads of cash for doing sod all and RCD'S have done us no favours, years ago people had a healthy respect, almost a fear of electric, it can kill you, now the attitude is, 'well if you get it wrong that thing will trip'.

In a way I can understand Murdoch's comment, we must be the only trade where people expect 'free legal aid' but will probably try and sue you when it all goes wrong, the trouble is it usually goes wrong because either they haven't followed your instructions, or they didn't tell you the full story in the begining.

 
it's not difficult at all, I and others managed to post helpful posts without criticism, Murdoch could have posted that things like earthing and the existing CU need to be considered, but chose to post an unhelpful post that was critical of what I and others had posted . That's about attitude of mind. Had this post been a so called sparky hiding their incompetence (and charging joe public money) and not in the DiY section, then I would have fully supported his post. 

This forum also survives on sponsors, keep driving people away and  the 'traffic' will fall and there will be no forum. It's also not the first time I've pulled Murdoch up on such issues. so he's a very naughty boy who should know better! Could do with a finger wagging emoji  :^O

 
That maybe has given me the answer I want. Why do some of you so  called tradesmen always want to be elitists? I'm in business myself and deal with customers all the time.I just wanted a bit of advice and constructive ideas....this seemed the ideal place for that as it had a DIY section. OK there were a couple of helpful posts but overall I've been left feeling a complete numpty how dare I even suggest doing anything myself. So Thanks but I'm off...you'll be pleased to hear I've found a helpful local sparky (well qualified) to sort this out.
The whole point is this is supposed to be a friendly place with a dedicated DIY section.

One of the forum owners is a DIYer who does a bit of his own electrical work and has a reasonable understanding of how these things work.............

 
This was working until a lightning strike nearby a couple of years ago. I know there is power from the consumer unit to the old cable junction in loft (I replaced the fuse which was blown with the lightning at the time) but nothing in the garage so presumably the old cable is defunct. I have left the fuse switched off at the consumer unit and never bothered as didn't have much use of the garage. Now it's time to get it sorted.


Having just skipped through the posts so far....

Some relevant...   some NOT!!!

I am not sure if you will actually come back and read this...

BUT...

The first thing to do is Prove if you presumption is correct...

You will need a tester that can do continuity and insulation resistance..

If you don't have one of these, or don't understand what they are or how to use them..

Then get a local electrician round to test it for you...

Once you know the 'actual condition'/'or not' of the garage supply then you can plan any suitable remedial work..

Guinness

 
If the op is going to get some cheap meters, he may as well see if he can pick up a copy of the 17th edition regs too, I know they're out of date but given that not a lot has changed in the fundamental stuff it would give him an idea of why and how we do what we do.

 
I doubt the OP will come back and see any further advice, as he has not been on since his last post on Thursday where he said:-

That maybe has given me the answer I want. Why do some of you so  called tradesmen always want to be elitists? I'm in business myself and deal with customers all the time.I just wanted a bit of advice and constructive ideas....this seemed the ideal place for that as it had a DIY section. OK there were a couple of helpful posts but overall I've been left feeling a complete numpty how dare I even suggest doing anything myself. So Thanks but I'm off...you'll be pleased to hear I've found a helpful local sparky (well qualified) to sort this out.
As his opening post was on Wed @ 16:16, and by Thursday @ 9:27 he has got the impression that the forum is not helpful to anyone with a DIY background, that is quite a quick response to scare new users away. Remember more new users = more forum traffic = more happy sponsors = more revenue to keep the forum going. So if you enjoy the forum and want to see it keep going you know what to do!

Doc H.

 
Sometimes I lean towards helping a diy'er on the basis they're going to have a go anyway and good advice might mean they at least do it "less wrong". I always worry about come back though. I then go through phases of "I've spent ££££ on training and books, WTGrape should I?" Almost wants that Wiring Matters guide from 2005 on "shed" wiring brought up to date and point them at that.

https://electrical.theiet.org/media/1695/electrical-installations-outdoors-a-supply-to-a-detached-outbuilding.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwil4oDD1-DhAhU6RxUIHS7fDlIQFjAGegQIBxAC&usg=AOvVaw383FWw05Q6zVowQqp2B-0o&cshid=1555832778359

 
. I then go through phases of "I've spent ££££ on training and books, WTGrape should I?"
 so don't post, you are under no obligation to do so rather than scare site visitors off like somebody else does.

I know where you are coming from on this, my neighbours ***** son in law ( a bus driver) was telling me how he modified a ring main by using 2 single sockets and 2 plugs, which are hidden under floorboards under a laminate floor. Sort of muppet that doesn't like paying anyone to do anything. 

 
DIY advice is a no-win situation.  Bank holidays are a particular problem  😀

We could just say:  Regulations and calculations for this are quite tricky, but FYI most of the cost of your job is digging the B . .  big Hole as no one really wants to do that.   So get an electrician round, get sound advice on the route and depth of the trench and get some underground duct and draw rope and a spade.   Arrange for Electrician to return when the hole is ready to fill.   

i.e. Only pay electrician to do the electrician bits and both parties are happy . .

 

 
DIY advice is a no-win situation.  Bank holidays are a particular problem  😀

We could just say:  Regulations and calculations for this are quite tricky, but FYI most of the cost of your job is digging the B . .  big Hole as no one really wants to do that.   So get an electrician round, get sound advice on the route and depth of the trench and get some underground duct and draw rope and a spade.   Arrange for Electrician to return when the hole is ready to fill.   

i.e. Only pay electrician to do the electrician bits and both parties are happy . .

 





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I don't think the 'sheds' help to be honest, they're full of electrical stuff from an led lamp to a consumer unit, yet there's very little mention of the need to have things properly tested. I know it may be easy to swap a white plastic socket for a nice shiney chrome one, but what about testing it's safe, and I'm not just talking about the actual fitting of the socket, I'm thinking about the installation before you touched it, do you know if it's actually got a functioning earth?

I've seen an increasing number of older properties with earthing issues, I had one last year, TNS system that had gone fault on the incomer, Ze of 300 ohms, I had another where it was non existent, the landlord, an electrician allegedly, had decided to TT the supply even though it was a TNS system, if the tenant hadn't asked me to look at it then that installation would have been left unsafe, even worse was the fact that it was a looped service off next door, so they had no earth either.

Sadly I think that Joe Public has very little idea of how important the tests we do are, and a lot of them have no idea that we actually do any tests, whether this is down to the fact they don't see any testing, or perhaps there are a lot of electricians who'll change a socket or switch, or light fitting and not bother doing any testing, we've all been there, you find that there's no earth on something while working at a house and the customer replies, "well it works doesn't it".

I always make a point of explaining why we do a loop test, and showing the customer the test being done, and telling them the result, when you tell them that the maximum value is say 1.5 and there's is 0.50 they seem very happy, it's like you've told them they've got a really good car or something. The worrying one was several years ago, does anyone remember a certain DIY store that produced those handy 'how to' guides, everything from replacing a door lock to rewiring your own home! If I remember correctly the ECA was responsible for getting the 'how to rewire your home' guide, withdrawn, and quite rightly so.

I did a jacuzzi for a mate last year, he wanted to have a go, so fine, I went and looked at the job, did the calcs for the cable size, then gave him a list of materials and sent him off to get them. We arranged a day to do the install and I marked up where the holes needed drilling, where the cable was to be run and gave him the spacing distances for the cleats, and off he went, when the cable was in I connected it up, tested it and did the necessary paperwork, I was more than happy because I didn't have to do all the donkey work, and he was happy because when his friends came around he could tell them how he'd done most of the work, but he knew it was safe because an electrician had done the connections and testing.

I think we don't generally want to be seen as unfriendly, or elitist, I certainly don't at any rate, but then again I don't want to see anyone get hurt because they couldn't afford what I advised but did it anyway. By that I mean with particular reference to cable sizes, go anywhere on the web and you'll find tables telling you what current a given size of cable will carry. Unfortunately, when they see that  a 2.5 t&e will carry X number of amps and is about 50p a metre, yet you've said it needs a 6 mm at £2 a metre, they often don't understand why you've said it needs a 6mm, be it for volt drop, or earth loop values or whatever, they just see cost. That is the bit I worry about, something going wrong, somebody getting hurt and all because somebody wanted to save a few quid, as I say when people go on about the cost of having it done properly, "you think this is dear, try pricing a funeral, or a house rebuild,because you could be looking at either or both, if it goes wrong. 

 
I would also like some of you to think what motivates people to do work themselves. I have a decent job and I could afford to pay someone to do the work for me but I enjoy doing it myself and it's convinient. If I want to put up a new outside light (job for later) then it's vastly easier ordering the bits online and doing that on a nice evening when I can. I don't have to chase an electrician, take time away from work in the day etc. On the whole I take pride in what I do and I do even have a tester, although I don't pay to get it callibrated.

I'm sure there are some rough DIYers out there but some of us take a lot of pride in doing a good job. There are some rough electricians out there too............

 
Case in point. My big brother. Wanted to dig the trench & lay the new cable to the garage himself (the old 1mm MICC in a scaffold pole was shagged). I said get proper duct. He got blue 25mm MDPE. I explained how to unroll the SWA; broom handle across two patio chairs or wife+broom handle and get daughter to tread on end whilst they walk down the garden. Did he listen?

IMG-20130224-00065_zps9690343e.jpg

When I got there after the panicked call it was a sea of mud and Fairy Liquid where he'd been using copious quantities try and get it through the MDPE. Trench was a spade's depth if that but that was OK because "he knew where it was". 

 
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