Downlighters in Lathe and Plaster (Grrr)

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sirsparkabit

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H i chaps, sure this one has been done on here but cant find it,

I have 24 down lights to fit,have convinced customer to have energy savers in lounge diner +hall,ip rated gu10s in shower room and the customer has a set of five Elv (not fire rated that he wants me to fit in his Kitchen).

Property is a bungalow so no fire compartment issues,only thing is ceilings are lathe and plaster and i am concerned about the heat from his lights.

Also best method of cutting lathes would be welcome. :_|

 

sirsparkabit

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O.k i will ring the client and tell him i am not fitting his lights, :_|

only F rated and if his plaster falls off he will have to get his plasterer round to fit panels where the fittings will be placed. :|

Part of the building is boarded over so no problem with that bit.

I hate these things. X(

spoke to my scheme provider and he even told me i could put plant pots over the clients supplied lights,its a funny ol game this. :eek:

 

Admin1

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Hang on Mate - I am sure someone will come and read your thread. :)

 

sirsparkabit

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Hang on Mate - I am sure someone will come and read your thread. :)
Hi admin i hope that didn't sound like i was being impatient,i had a pm with one of the forum members so in a way i was replying to that. cheersGuiness Drink

 

kme

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H i chaps, sure this one has been done on here but cant find it,I have 24 down lights to fit,have convinced customer to have energy savers in lounge diner +hall,ip rated gu10s in shower room and the customer has a set of five Elv (not fire rated that he wants me to fit in his Kitchen).

Property is a bungalow so no fire compartment issues,only thing is ceilings are lathe and plaster and i am concerned about the heat from his lights.

Would spec. fire rated in this position mate. Have seen open type fitted in lath & plaster; but wouldn`t be happy doing it myself.

Also best method of cutting lathes would be welcome. :_|
*sharp* holesaw is the animal of choice, afaiac. :)

 

sirsparkabit

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Thanks Kme, you have reinforced this one for me i didnt want to fit the cheap fittings he had bought but didnt want to lose the job either (board move and change also).

I hate lime plaster and think i will issue a disclaimer before i start that damage to plaster is not up to me to reinstate. ;)

Dont think me hole saw will last long!! :_|

 

binky

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Sharp holesaw essential and go easy. Wear eye protection to avoid dust. You might also want to try grit edge holesaws - they cut through nails which is always a problem with laths.

As far as the lights are concerned, anything F rated is designed to be fitted to a flammable surface (low energy lamps not a problem) - have been back to premises with ordinary downlights fitted to laths and never seen so much as a scorch mark.

 
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I would not fit standard downlights in lathe and plaster ceilings. They do get hot. When I have fitted them before I have used snaplite downlights. they do an adapter for lathe and plaster ceilings. Here is a shortcut to their website. http://www.snaplite.co.uk/. I would think JCC low energy downlights would be ok as they don't seem to get to hot. All depends how good ceiling is. I normally cut them out with a sharp holesaw. Although they will get worn out after a few cuts. As binky says a grit edged holesaw maybe better.

batty

 
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Sharp holesaw essential and go easy. Wear eye protection to avoid dust. You might also want to try grit edge holesaws - they cut through nails which is always a problem with laths.
Its not the nails thats the problem, hole saws are designed for cutting steel. Its the sand in the 'plaster' that blunts the blade. If your unlucky you will only get 4-5 holes :( . If your lucky 20-30 :^O .

 

sirsparkabit

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Thanks to All of you for these constructive replys.

I will try the grit edged holesaw as never have owned one,and with the comment about the sand it makes sense;)

Never come across those snaplite shields before also will look into them. :)

Confidence in not burning down the property restoredPrayPrayPray:x

 

binky

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I would not fit standard downlights in lathe and plaster ceilings. They do get hot. When I have fitted them before I have used snaplite downlights. they do an adapter for lathe and plaster ceilings. Here is a shortcut to their website. http://www.snaplite.co.uk/. I would think JCC low energy downlights would be ok as they don't seem to get to hot. All depends how good ceiling is. I normally cut them out with a sharp holesaw. Although they will get worn out after a few cuts. As binky says a grit edged holesaw maybe better.batty
Standard downlights do get hot, but I have never seen any that have scorched wood, let alone set fire to it - think I'm going to rig one up to a plug and see if I can start a fire (outside of course) and see if I can get a definitive answer. I replaced some lights recently, fitted to bathroom with laughing plater ceiling, covered in rockwool insulation, covered in carpet, and with cardboard over the top for good measure (attic space was accessible so owner had dumped stuff over top of lights). Only the nylon terminal cover, and cable running close to it, on the first light fitting in the string had melted and turned black, gone hard etc as plastics do. Nothing else scorched or owt, and fittings had been there for 2 years.

Like the adaptor piece - how much are these Batty?

 

binky

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Its not the nails thats the problem, hole saws are designed for cutting steel. Its the sand in the 'plaster' that blunts the blade. If your unlucky you will only get 4-5 holes :( . If your lucky 20-30 :^O .
Discovered grit edge after working in a house that had very fine beach pebbles in plaster - new hole saw lasted about 4 cuts X( decided there had to be something betterPray discovered grit edge :)but not so easy to obtain :(

 

greensparky

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how about this for a cunning plan.

if you are putting these in a bungalow and you can get at the top of the ceiling buy some expanding foam. and put it where the fittings are going cut out your holes and then scrape it off if you are worried about the excess foam catching light the get fire rated. also lath and plaster ceilings have a nasty habit of breaking away when trying to put light fittings in them so there is something else you can do to stop this mix up some plaster or similar and poor it on the area, brush some pva on first, if the ceiling is not accessible make a small hole then squirt fire ratted foam in it not to much as once you have cut the holes you will have to cut it off. you can get fire proof covers for the back of the lights but they are expensive, (how about putting more fire ratted foam and scoop out a hole for the light ? i wonder if that would work and be acceptable????????) I think screw fix do the hole saws.

 

greensparky

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how about this for a cunning plan.if you are putting these in a bungalow and you can get at the top of the ceiling buy some expanding foam. and put it where the fittings are going cut out your holes and then scrape it off if you are worried about the excess foam catching light the get fire rated. also lath and plaster ceilings have a nasty habit of breaking away when trying to put light fittings in them so there is something else you can do to stop this mix up some plaster or similar and poor it on the area, brush some pva on first, if the ceiling is not accessible make a small hole then squirt fire ratted foam in it not to much as once you have cut the holes you will have to cut it off. you can get fire proof covers for the back of the lights but they are expensive, (how about putting more fire ratted foam and scoop out a hole for the light ? i wonder if that would work and be acceptable????????) I think screw fix do the hole saws.
 

Mr Sworld

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35W maximum for the lamps and they need to be the aluminium backed versions (GU versions).

It's a nasty job though, can they not cover it with plasterboard first? (I suspect I'll know what the answer will be!)

NO!

 

sirsparkabit

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Epilogue

Rang client,yesterday morning-

Do you still want me to start today? i will only fit firerated fittings though,i will also bring you a contract to sign and will require a small deposit after i finish tonight then i will order your new lights ect.

Client- Oh yes please.

Me-Ok i will be there after i go to the wholesalers to get some holesaws the right size.

Later Arrive at job Explain to client exactly which lights ect i will fit for him.He says thats fine only trouble is my missus has a problem with this Deposit. She dosent want to pay anything till the end of job as she dosent know me :eek:

I explain that i only want

 

binky

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EpilogueWe have rung two other sparkys she says,"they dont want a deposit"

Me-They must want your job then more than i do, your wasting my time goodbye. X(

.
I only ever ask for deposits from the sort of idiots unlikely to pay, like landlords X( . Perhaps you should have termed it as part payment for first fix or something - if you ever watch rogue traders taking deposits and running is common practice amongst thieves, hence joe public can be a bit wary of these things.

 
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Its strange why Electricians are treated different to other trades. If you have a Bathroom fitted by Dolphin you have to pay the full price upfront and when the Bathroom is delivered you are then given a date as to when it is to be fitted. Yet we are expected to do the work without even a deposit. There is something wrong there.

batty

 
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