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Andy1733

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I'm going to gracefully bow out, because blinkered EV fans just do not want to know the truth, all I am getting is statistics spouted to me, statistics will say whatever the person paying for them wants them to say.
A wiser man than me once said there are 3 types of lies,
Lies
Damned Lies
and Statistics

If you don't want to study facts, ( I can't believe @PaulieN used Reuters as a source of facts LMFAO ), that just about sums up the intelligence of (some)EV owners , then that's up to you, but I think it says more about @PaulieN believing Reuters, than I need to carry on here,
Arguing with an idiot is fruitless, I will only end up being beat by experience.

If anyone can come up with actual facts, and not opinions or statistics, to back up their EV claims then I'm willing to listen.
As for @PaulieN , maybe apply to Audi as a consultant, you can obviously help them with you emission figures, you are a joke onto yourself.
I don't want to be dragged into this debate but can you post links for the the facts (not opinions) for your claims please as I like a good read
 

PaulieN

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I don't want to be dragged into this debate but can you post links for the the facts (not opinions) for your claims please as I like a good read
Just the one showing how over a 20 year use period an EV is more polluting overall than a Diesel will do. Seriously, because I'd like to see if I really am as wrong and deluded as steptoe thinks I am. I'd love to see his source including workings for that corker.

Here's one of my many sources, disagreeing with steptoes learned conclusion:


Oddly, search as I may, I can't find a bean to support the Diesel is cleaner argument.
 

Sharpend

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I think you are missing the argument, no one is saying it is cleaner per se, from what o understand as being said is that the overall manufacturing, life span use and recycling of the diesel vehicle is less polluting than the Ev and given that the EV hasn’t been in mass production for too many years it is hard to justify the stats for it?
 

PaulieN

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I think you are missing the argument, no one is saying it is cleaner per se, from what o understand as being said is that the overall manufacturing, life span use and recycling of the diesel vehicle is less polluting than the Ev and given that the EV hasn’t been in mass production for too many years it is hard to justify the stats for it?
No I'm not, I'm arguing the entire build, fuelling and final recycling of a given EV including all associated costs for production and transport of a given fuel type, compared to a Diesel is way less polluting by an order of magnitude. There is vast, scientific research on this backing up my side of this debate, a little of which I've provided, a Google search will bring forth weeks of reading supporting my side of the argument. Whereas steptoe is arguing the opposite, but refusing to provide even one example of the counter argument! Searching for this counter argument also returns literally nothing at all to support it. I'm suspecting steptoes source is "bloke down the pub said" or he is that bloke. ;)
 

steptoe

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kindly moderate your language, there is no need for insults on this forum. By all means argue until you are blue in the face, but if you are going to do that, then at least present counter figures and stats of your own to back up your arguments.
My language,
FWIW , I am , I have yet to call anyone involved in purchasing an EV an imbecile or a cupid stunt.
I do NOT have to present facts to a counter arguement, the debater should be forced to counter myself with facts to back up their claims, that is how a debate works in case you didn't understand.
 

steptoe

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No I'm not, I'm arguing the entire build, fuelling and final recycling of a given EV including all associated costs for production and transport of a given fuel type, compared to a Diesel is way less polluting by an order of magnitude. There is vast, scientific research on this backing up my side of this debate, a little of which I've provided, a Google search will bring forth weeks of reading supporting my side of the argument. Whereas steptoe is arguing the opposite, but refusing to provide even one example of the counter argument! Searching for this counter argument also returns literally nothing at all to support it. I'm suspecting steptoes source is "bloke down the pub said" or he is that bloke. ;)
Ok, so on a quick Google, ( other search engines are available ) the lifespan of an EV battery is 15-17 years, that would explain why nobody is able to provide a 20 year figure for EV
once you take that figure into account then the EV carbon footprint goes through the roof again.
How do these batteries get recycled anyway,?
And then more child slave labour for more cobalt.......
It may be you have the supposed moral high ground in first world countries amongst your prosecco friends,
But you have the basement in every intelligent adults view.
 

steptoe

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I don't want to be dragged into this debate but can you post links for the the facts (not opinions) for your claims please as I like a good read
Just the one showing how over a 20 year use period an EV is more polluting overall than a Diesel will do. Seriously, because I'd like to see if I really am as wrong and deluded as steptoe thinks I am. I'd love to see his source including workings for that corker.

Here's one of my many sources, disagreeing with steptoes learned conclusion:


Oddly, search as I may, I can't find a bean to support the Diesel is cleaner argument.
No I'm not, I'm arguing the entire build, fuelling and final recycling of a given EV including all associated costs for production and transport of a given fuel type, compared to a Diesel is way less polluting by an order of magnitude. There is vast, scientific research on this backing up my side of this debate, a little of which I've provided, a Google search will bring forth weeks of reading supporting my side of the argument. Whereas steptoe is arguing the opposite, but refusing to provide even one example of the counter argument! Searching for this counter argument also returns literally nothing at all to support it. I'm suspecting steptoes source is "bloke down the pub said" or he is that bloke. ;)
I think my previous post has the answers.
But, then again,
Even tho I have, I'm not the one required to provide the proof, the people spouting that EVs are better than ICEs are, without that concrete evidence then you are spouting heresay as fact, but when did that get in the way of an arsehole spouting shit as fact,?????
 

binky

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I think my previous post has the answers.
But, then again,
Even tho I have, I'm not the one required to provide the proof, the people spouting that EVs are better than ICEs are, without that concrete evidence then you are spouting heresay as fact, but when did that get in the way of an arsehole spouting shit as fact,?????
And you keep telling everyone they are all wrong, so present a viable counter argument instead of semantics, if you can. Currently your arguments have intellectual weight of a used tea bag.
 

Chewbacca

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My language,
FWIW , I am , I have yet to call anyone involved in purchasing an EV an imbecile or a cupid stunt.
I do NOT have to present facts to a counter arguement, the debater should be forced to counter myself with facts to back up their claims, that is how a debate works in case you didn't understand.
enough is enough. It's like trying to persuade Darth Vader to pet kittens. You can go be argumentative elsewhere.
 
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binky

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I think you are missing the argument, no one is saying it is cleaner per se, from what o understand as being said is that the overall manufacturing, life span use and recycling of the diesel vehicle is less polluting than the Ev and given that the EV hasn’t been in mass production for too many years it is hard to justify the stats for it?
if you read the articles I posted earlier, they cover complete lifespan, including manufacturing. It is perfectly possible to forescast pollution over the life of an Ev or ICE. One of things I used to do in Aerospace days was simulated lifecyles of military equipment, and that was 30 years ago. Tech has improved exponetially since then - we were using a BBC apple PC to run the test gear...
 

binky

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if you read the articles I posted earlier, they cover complete lifespan, including manufacturing. It is perfectly possible to forescast pollution over the life of an Ev or ICE. One of things I used to do in Aerospace days was simulated lifecyles of military equipment, and that was 30 years ago. Tech has improved exponetially since then - we were using a BBC apple PC to run the test gear...
Forgot to say, the life cycle testing was designed to simulate 20 years of the life of military equipment, which in turn was expected to work with over 95% efficiency when fired at the enemy even at 20years after being built.
 

Andy1733

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I think my previous post has the answers.
But, then again,
Even tho I have, I'm not the one required to provide the proof, the people spouting that EVs are better than ICEs are, without that concrete evidence then you are spouting heresay as fact, but when did that get in the way of an arsehole spouting shit as fact,?????
Sorry steptoe. I'm not saying one is better than the other as I don't know. This is why I'm asking you for some evidence to your claim. I'm happy to believe you though I would like to make my own mind up
 
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I think my previous post has the answers.
But, then again,
Even tho I have, I'm not the one required to provide the proof, the people spouting that EVs are better than ICEs are, without that concrete evidence then you are spouting heresay as fact, but when did that get in the way of an arsehole spouting shit as fact,?????
Have a look at this IF youre able to consider open mind and maybe changing it?? It would be interesting to see your trusted source of FACTS!


 

Sharpend

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Well then you’ll know that oil is used for far more than just fuel so by all means remove the oil industry but don’t whinge when many other day to day items disappear and are not replaced or cost very much more.
Also be interested what you propose all the millions of workers will do when their industry is wiped out? Don’t think that may have a harmful effect on day to day life?
 

binky

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Well then you’ll know that oil is used for far more than just fuel so by all means remove the oil industry but don’t whinge when many other day to day items disappear and are not replaced or cost very much more.
Also be interested what you propose all the millions of workers will do when their industry is wiped out? Don’t think that may have a harmful effect on day to day life?
The oil industry will not disappear anytime soon, as for jobs, hopefully they will be replaced with jobs in green industries, provided we invest in the tech in the UK, and don't just import it all.
 

PaulieN

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Well then you’ll know that oil is used for far more than just fuel so by all means remove the oil industry but don’t whinge when many other day to day items disappear and are not replaced or cost very much more.
Also be interested what you propose all the millions of workers will do when their industry is wiped out? Don’t think that may have a harmful effect on day to day life?
No need to get rid of the oil industry, as you rightly say, we'll still need some of it. It just needs scaling down massively to a sensible size to supply oil for product manufacture and lubrication, but we have to stop burning the stuff en-masse.

Workers always lose jobs when technology moves on, the minors all lost their jobs, 100 or so years ago vast amounts of horse related industries lost their jobs. Most will find new, sometimes better employment, people move on. It is a tragedy for some individually who can't/won't adapt, but that's life. We can't wreck the planet for future generations and our children's health just to keep people employed in obsolete polluting industries.
 

King Arthur

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Sorry steptoe. I'm not saying one is better than the other as I don't know. This is why I'm asking you for some evidence to your claim. I'm happy to believe you though I would like to make my own mind up
Exactly. Trust but verify.
 

King Arthur

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Well then you’ll know that oil is used for far more than just fuel so by all means remove the oil industry but don’t whinge when many other day to day items disappear and are not replaced or cost very much more.
Also be interested what you propose all the millions of workers will do when their industry is wiped out? Don’t think that may have a harmful effect on day to day life?
I don't think anyone disputes that oil is a valuable material resource, only that it is damaging when used as an energy source. These things are not simply black and white as you imply.

As for jobs, I spent my working life in an industry that didn't exist when I was at school (microelectronics). Things move quickly these days and new job opportunities arise for those willing to learn new things.
 
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