Getting An Emcomat 17S Lathe Running

[workwright]

Hi, First Happy New Year. Second a question.  The lathe is a reallly nice machine but was rather unloved, so before use I am returning it to ex-works condition.  The first job was to remove the integral splash back since somebody had tried to secure the 800Kg Lathe by taking the cargo tie over the splashback, result bent plate.  Hopefully the local bodyshop will get it sorted out.  In doing this I found the main spindle of the lathe was locked and would not turn.  So here is my question.  I got inside the drive system part of the cabinet and found the spindle turns fine with the polybelt removed from the drive motor but the drive motor appears to be locked up solid.  I now have a brochure for the lathe and it says "equipped with electromechanical  spindle brake"  The motor is made by ELIN I will post the plate details tomorrow, It is a dual voltage 3HP 3 phase motor. The Motor seem longer than normal and has two separate cables to its connection box.  If this is an electomechanically braked motor is it correct that with NO power supply to the lathe it is in the braked state, and will only become free to turn when there is power getting to the machine?  Have these motors a manual overide/brake release to use when re-fitting and tensioning drive belts?  Any help and advice would be welcome.  The lathe was manufactured in the late 1990s.  Thanks.

 

[Sidewinder]

From where I am with the info you have given above, I would say you are spot on in your deductions so far!

Welcome to the forum btw.

 

[apprentice87]

I have a lathe manufactured in Austria in 1976 that is fitted with an electromagnetic spindle brake too, only mine is mounted on the outside of the motor. Mine requires power [24V] to operate the brake and so, would appear to be the opposite to yours. If there is a brake inside the motor, surely details would be on the motor plate????

john...

[Mine is a Vöest-Alpine DA180]

 

[workwright]

Hi, thanks for the info so far. To help clarify the operation of my motor here is what is on the plate:

ELIN Typ LCP610  LO4  F3N-9  CSA

3~ MOT 100    Nr 18314027 F

^/V 220-240 /380-415 V     10 /5.8A

2.4 kW    COS (phi) 0.8

1390  1/min    50Hz

VDE 0503  OVE - M10  87   ISOL  CLF

IP54  S6  - 60%  BRAKE 24V= 32Nm.

I infer from the plate it is dual voltage 3 phase and is fitted with a 24V electromechanical brake.  My question is, is it correct that the motor disconnected from the supply is fully locked?  Will the motor free up when the machine is connected to the power but the drive selector is in the neutral position to all for the chuch to be rotated to select drive gear and chuck the job.  The 24V supply  being lost on changing direction of rotation or stopping? Once at rest the 24V is returned allowing the spindle to be rotated by hand again?  I contacted EMCO before Xmas and they worried me by saying the motor should rotate with no power to the lathe which is the contrary to what I have  and seems contrary to how these motors are designed. I thought the 24V holds the Brake Off. The brake being there to stop rotation when power is lost.  Have I got myself confused and the motor has failed or is it just waiting for a power supply???  Any more advice information greatfully received.  When I have got this sorted I will be back for advice about powere supply.  I want to plug the lathe into something (inverter/ converter) as is. I do not want to re-wire anything. Iwant to use all the ancillaries that are part of this lathe and already wired into  its electrical cabinet.   So what is best to give me Plug and Play?  I have got a Static converter that powers  (noisily) an old Britan lathe.  For this new machine I want some better quality 3 phase that can cope with running small motors, lighting plus the main drive of this lathe. Comments, advice  much appreciated. Workwright

 

[Sidewinder]

Normally a braked motor of this type would be locked when without power.

Also, the brake is used to assist the spindle to stop within the time required under the essential health and safety requirements of the machinery directive.

 

[kerching]

Have you tried the lathes.co.uk site?

 

[apprentice87]

Hi There,

I do not understand what you mean about "Will the motor free up when the machine is connected to the power but the drive selector is in the neutral position to allow for the chuck to be rotated to select drive gear and chuck the job"

No, it will not. The motor will be locked at all times unless it is running, but it does not make any difference at all to the operation of the machine....

It makes no difference if the motor is locked or not to rotating the chuck or changing gear. To change gear just stop the lathe and change gear!!! If the next gear will not select, just pull the chuck round by hand till it does. My lathe has a central "neutral" position to the back gear. you just knock it into neutral, and you can rotate the chuck all you like.. Remember, it is ONLY the motor that is braked, NOT the spindle itself. This thing will not be like the britan, unless you knock it out of gear, there is no way on this planet that you will be able to rotate the spindle in the lower gears even if you took the motor off altogether and threw it away

Here is a link to a video of a lathe almost exactly like mine.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/23gQFeg_CN0?feature=oembed
Watch from about the 0:25 second mark and see how the operator stops the spindle using the saddle mounted lever [not in shot] which controls the lathe electrically, [Remember, the motor will be locked now] and then simply changes from high to low using the backgear.

I doubt that you will just be able to "plug it in" to anything. For one thing, so far as i know [and i am no authority on this at all!!!] an inverter has to be wired direct to the motor, and you then control the motor using the inverter itself, NOT the usual controls built into the lathe. Built into your lathe will be a whole host of electrics to stop, start, and reverse the spindle, and ALSO to operate the brake, all powered from a 24v supply from a transformer.

If you did use an inverter connected directly to the motor, how you going to syncronise the motor starting with the brake operation?? How you going to power the control transformer??

If you want "plug and play" i would think the ONLY way to go would be a rotary phase converter, unless that is, you got someone with the ability of Sidewinder to rewire the thing with the inverter controlled by the original lathe controls.

Have you thought about having the DNO provide you with a proper 3 phase supply?? It will not cost £30,000 like halfwits tell you it will, unless you live up a mountain. My own was about £1200, a friend of mine paid £2000, as they, [the DNO] had to dig across a road.

Persevere with the thing though, as it will be a great lathe!! Do you have all the bits to go with it??

john...

 

[workwright]

Hi, apprentice 87 thanks for the info. to answer your last point first.  Yes I have quite a lot of stuff with the lathe. It was owned first by an EMCO equipped training centre in South Wales.  It came with chucks(all tight as drums and unmarked)The large 4 jaw still is packing grease, faceplates ,centres and basic tailstock tooling and a large Dickson QCT with several toolholders.  From the condition of the bed, cross slide surfaces it has only done a few hours of work in its life.  It has a nice electrical cabinet with simple bridges to move to select the input voltage.  All the  additional extras, coolant , lighting are prewired into this and hence using the onboard transformer can run on any of the selectable input voltages without touching the wiring. Hence the desire to plug and play. I have been reading up inverters etc. I have come to the conclusion that rather than by a rotary converter today it is possible to supply a workshop of 3 phase tools from a 415v digital inverter, as long as the load drawn is within the capacity of the inverter.  Even a small suds pump will be as happy running on its own or as part of the joint load with the main motor.  I will check this out with the specalist companies that supply these things of course before spending money.

Getting back to my motor drive system. The manual(that EMCO UK very kindly PDF me) says stop motor to change speeds. I understand this (and yes this is my first experience of owning a gear head lathe) but when I have used them in the past having stopped the lathe the chuck could always be rotated to free the gear to allow the selector to move the desired wheel.  When this lathe was stopped(without power suppy) the chuck would not turn until one of the gear selectors could be  persuaded (using more foce than I would care to use routinely) to get a gear out of drive into a mid position then of course it rotated and again with patiece a new gear could be selected and engaged the chuck was then, again unnable to move  until I presume power was on and the drive switched on.  If this is how it is supposed to work so be it but it feels to me that possibly I should have purchased and older lathe like a CVA or Smart and Brown VSL with a clutch. Possibly when it has power it will all work nicely like the one in the You tube clip. Regards, Workwright.

 

[apprentice87]

Hi there Workwright,

Firstly, the power for the thing; Sidewinder and Canoeboy are proper experts on all that sort of thing, they will set you right on what is possible or best, so no worries there.

As regards chaging gear, do not forget the lathe has not run for ages by the sounds of things, plus it is newish and tight, plus it is cold. When all warmed up all will be ok. Trust me, you will not get better than one of them. As you have found out, you will not be pulling the chuck round in gear on a large lathe....

A clutch is nice, my Harrison [i got 2 lathes] has got one. But electric spindle control has its advantages too. Leaving aside no clutch to wear out, say you are screwcutting a metric thread on an imperial lathe or the other way about. Now, a half decent lathe will be able to cut nearly any pitch, metric or imperial just by use of the gearbox, BUT and it is a BIG but, the threading dial will only work for one or the other. So, sometime you are going to have to thread something without using the thread indicator. Normally this means not disengaging the halfnuts, [although it can be done [disengaging them], but i would have to show you] and stopping and reversing the lathe. With a clutch this is a right pain; Whip the clutch out, stop the motor, reverse the motor, engage the clutch, disengage the clutch, stop the motor, reverse the motor, engage the clutch and take another cut.......

With your lathe there will be none of this; End of cut, BAM, motor and spindle stop, whip out tool, reverse, stop, put on a cut, and forward. MUCH easier, so as you can see, sometimes a clutch MIGHT be preferable, or really, just what seems "conventional" but other times no clutch and electric control will be FAR FAR better.

I should point out though, that if you imagine that on a lathe with a clutch, you can disengage the clutch, and then pull the chuck round, you are mistaken. On a big lathe you would have to be like hercules anyway, and secondly, every clutch lathe i have every used, has a brake built in with the clutch, so when you disengage the clutch, the spindle brake is applied and you will not [or should not] be able to pull the thing round, so in practical terms, it would be no different to operating your EMCO.

I think once you have power you will be very pleasantly surprised.....

Sidewinder and Canoe, will be able to point you in the right direction with the power for the thing, i can guarantee that!!!!!

john...

 

[workwright]

Hi, thank you for this last post John, it is most reassuring.  I do like machine tools and I think I am still a bit shell shocked thatI have got hold of such a nice modern machine for what in effect was an unbeleivable price.  I just do not wish to mess anything up so perhaps I am seeing problems where there are none.  Once I have got the splashback  sorted an remounted I will repost  to seek out the power supply gurus you mention.

Besides the lathes in the workshop that generates a bit of cash now I am retired I am trying to collect a few high quality machines.  It is today with digital everything the ultra precision embodied in older machine tools that interests me.  No power cuts can cause this physical precision to be lost and the relationship with the operator is different. You interact with the tool to obtain the best, something that few people today in manufacturing are able to experience. Regards, Malc.

 

[apprentice87]

I agree 100% with what you say... I have seen on youtube some amazing things that people have produced, but with the aid of cnc machines. Now, all very good, and they have done some amazing jobs, BUT, i would like to see how far they would have got with manual machines.

I know people will say that is stupid, and times and processes move on, and that "do you go to work on a penny farthing", but that is not the point.

Do not get me wrong, i would like to spend £30,000 on some modern machines, but purely for production. They would hardly give you the same satisfaction as doing things the hard way. Be the same difference as between painting something like Holbein's "The Ambassadors" or taking a photo of them. Yes, photographers are skilled, but hardly in the same league...

Ok, people will now jump down my throat and tell me how hard it is to programme the things, but all i can say is go get yourself a universal miller and a dividing head, gear the head to the table, selecting suitable change wheels, and now mill a helix as in making a reamer. Not quite the same...

When i was 17 i used to work in an engineering works. They had a cam operated single spindle auto. It was fascinating to see this thing in action producing bits, all by mechanical means. Some of the things that were produced with such cam operated machines 60 70 years ago were amazing. All the operating cams had to be designed and then milled.

I can remember aged 16 studying such things as how to mill a cam with any desired rate of climb by means of a universal dividing head geared to the table feed and setting the head of the vertical miller over at an angle. The people that did these things [not me!!!!] were STUNNINGLY skilled.

Like so many things, these skills are now gone for ever.....

john..