Incomplete rings incomplete rings everywhere

[DaveS79]

Evening

Another basic query but still intrigued to know from others how they approach these situations. Been doing quite a few EICR's lately and seems on nearly every other job I'm finding incomplete rings. All 3 conductors no continuity so no signs was ever wired or intended to be a complete ring. Sods law 1 or 2 of these been in kitchen with fixed appliances and removing appliances to get to potential source or enable wiring to complete ring a pain. So far as standard i've classed these as C2's and if not been able to rectify ring i've split the 2 legs if think chances good MCB's won't trip. This doesn't sit well with me though and would prefer to still give them the 32amps. My real query then is can any case at all be made for leaving an incomplete ring on 32 amps? Seems like there's plenty of sparks out there that don't care that they are. Is there any circumstances a C3 would be appropriate? I realise 2.5mm clipped direct is rated at 27amps clipped but have never myself seen a cable of incomplete ring burnt out on a 32amps? 

Thanks

 

[Murdoch]

Lack of continuity of a ring is a C2 - no ifs, no buts

Split into 2 radials or change MCB to 20A are the only 2 real options in my book

 

[Fleeting]

Never assume an apparent ring final circuit with open continuity on the conductors was never a ring final. You must verify this by dead testing before you decide it is two separate circuits. Culprits for kitchen faults are these multi-gang grid switches which are notorious for poor connections.

 

[DaveS79]

Lack of continuity of a ring is a C2 - no ifs, no buts

Split into 2 radials or change MCB to 20A are the only 2 real options in my book

Thanks Murdoch good to have it confirmed. Just that I'm seeing it so much that got me questioning is there something that these sparks know that I don't this place only recently had full rewire and both of the 2 rings incomplete 

 

[DaveS79]

Never assume an apparent ring final circuit with open continuity on the conductors was never a ring final. You must verify this by dead testing before you decide it is two separate circuits. Culprits for kitchen faults are these multi-gang grid switches which are notorious for poor connections.

Thanks Fleeting. Makes sense.

 

[Murdoch]

 this place only recently had full rewire and both of the 2 rings incomplete 

I would be asking the owner if I could see the EIC he / she received 

But back to the EICR, issue the unsatisfactory with your invoice and walk away.

Its not your problem

Never assume an apparent ring final circuit with open continuity on the conductors was never a ring final. You must verify this by dead testing before you decide it is two separate circuits. Culprits for kitchen faults are these multi-gang grid switches which are notorious for poor connections.

not sure I agree with this, poor installation and testing, then loose connections are normally to blame

 

[Fleeting]

I would be asking the owner if I could see the EIC he / she received 

But back to the EICR, issue the unsatisfactory with your invoice and walk away.

Its not your problem

not sure I agree with this, poor installation and testing, then loose connections are normally to blame

Not sure what you are disagreeing with.

 

[Murdoch]

Not sure what you are disagreeing with.

your comment about grid switches

 

[DaveS79]

I would be asking the owner if I could see the EIC he / she received 

But back to the EICR, issue the unsatisfactory with your invoice and walk away.

Its not your problem

not sure I agree with this, poor installation and testing, then loose connections are normally to blame

I'll definitely be asking if she's got it but would be very surprised if she does. Looks to be a full refurb done by builders and no company sticker which is usually a tell tale sign.

 

[Phoenix]

The only thing I have to add, is if you are sure the cable is clipped direct with no insulation, no grouping etc. Then a lot of manufacturers do a 25A breaker, quite often you have to order them though as often not on the shelf as not many use them...

 

[Fleeting]

your comment about grid switches

Don't carry out too many domestic EICRs, normally commercial or industrial but last year we were lured into some social housing sites and nearly every ring final fault was found at the kitchen multi-gang grid. It is a poor conception coupled with  accessory and wiring style incompatibility, eg. inadequate terminal capacity, shallow back boxes and solid conductors. 

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

.... and nearly every ring final fault was found at the kitchen multi-gang grid. It is a poor conception coupled with.....

coupled with.... 

the probability they have been installed by some big-brand kitchen refurb company who sub-contract to a struggling new-starter electrician..

and give him a fixed price half a day job to pop-in and connect the sockets once the cupboard-fixers have fitted the worktops..

Anything done by kitchen-fiiters or bathroom fitters..

no matter what the accessories are..

have a very high probability of being bodged up in some way or other!

:C  

 

[boltonsparky]

Standard for rings. I come across more faults on ring finals than anything else. I pretty much know before I even do the end to end that there is going to be some kind of issue with it. No continuity, spurs off spurs, loose connections the list goes on, UK standard for residential is a test every 20 or more years so these faults go undetected for decades. They're an outdated British relic and although not dangerous in themselves by the time DIY Dave or any other muppet has done anything to it it has become dangerous. The only reason they don't go up in smoke is because of the small loads now demanded of socket circuits, the days of 3 bar heaters in most cases are gone, even more reason to do away with the rings. With the increase in EV uptake and dodgy charging lashups, dodgy ring finals are only going to become more of a problem. 

They bring in all these new regs for safety (questionable), the single safest reg they could bring in would be one prohibiting the new installation of ring final circuits. 

 

[ProDave]

My take is if you find L, N and E all "broken" then it has most likely either been deliberately broken, or it was never a ring in the first place.

I have found old houses with sockets wired in radials with perhaps 2 or 3 sockets on each radial, but have been paired up into 30A fuses.  So to a casual look you have a load of broken rings, but what you actually have is a load of radials on incorrect size fusing.  Once you understand that is is simply a case of sort out the fusing size to e.g 20A and everything is good.

Now when you find only one of L N or E is broken, that's when you have a fault to go looking for.

 

[Murdoch]

My take is if you find L, N and E all "broken" then it has most likely either been deliberately broken, or it was never a ring in the first place.

On a new rewire this is pxss poor - so Daves comment above is probably on the money

Th ONLY way to fault find this circuit is to:

1. Identify 100% which sockets are on said ring and draw the layout on a piece of paper

2. disconnect both legs from the CU and do:

on one leg do R1 + R2 around sockets noting the values (and which aren't ), then do a Rn + R2 on the same leg

On the other leg repeat above 

Then by looking at the values you may find if its 3 breaks, or 2 radials ............

Poorly terminated sockets are normally to blame in my experience

Time and patience are definitely required - plus a customer who understands that it could take 1 hour or 1 day (confirm this in writing BEFORE you start) - if they won't agree then walk away

Good luck.

Fault finding is a KEY strength of a domestic spark

Let us know how you get on.

 

[ProDave]

In my case it was easy.  Identify one of the suspected radials, and then take the sockets off, the last one only ever had 1 cable in it, so it was clearly wired like that.

When labelling the new CU I labelled them as "Sockets Radial" to try and avoid the next person having the same confusion.

 

[DaveS79]

Thanks guys. I just find these a bit of a pain explaining to customer when it's kitchen. It goes something like this....I can probably sort it for you for my minimum charge, but can't guarantee won't have tripping issues, or look I might need to dismantle some of your fixed appliances, to get to source of problem and even then you might require a degree of rewiring. Generally so far they take the split into radials option. Haven't had any call backs so far but never sits right.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I think some of these problems stem from the historic bog standard MCB assortment, that have been around for many years..

purchased by DIY bob..  or the Builder-who-does-electrics..  from one of the common DIY-Sheds starting with a B, H or W..

i.e. for £85 or less you got 2x 6A, 1x 16A, 4x 32A, 1x 40A + 1x 30ma RCD main switch..

(they Never come equipped with any 20A MCB's).. 

So when they take out an old Wylex with few sockets supplied from 20A 3036's..

they just assume its an improvement connecting the old 20A radials onto the nice shiny new 32A MCB's..

Which "must be right" for sockets, as that's what came with the board..

and the mate down the pub who knows all about these things said sockets go on 32A MCBs..

:C

:shakehead

 

[DaveS79]

I think some of these problems stem from the historic bog standard MCB assortment, that have been around for many years..

purchased by DIY bob.. or the Builder-who-does-electrics.. from one of the common DIY-Sheds starting with a B, H or W..

i.e. for £85 or less you got 2x 6A, 1x 16A, 4x 32A, 1x 40A + 1x 30ma RCD main switch..

(they Never come equipped with any 20A MCB's)..

So when they take out an old Wylex with few sockets supplied from 20A 3036's..

they just assume its an improvement connecting the old 20A radials onto the nice shiny new 32A MCB's..

Which "must be right" for sockets, as that's what came with the board..

and the mate down the pub who knows all about these things said sockets go on 32A MCBs..

:C

:shakehead

I think your pretty much on the money there SL seeing loads of this sort of thing. See ring on a 16 the other day and sockets on a 6 just because they either don't know better or more likely can't be arsed going to get the right MCB's

Locked to prevent being resurrected (again)