kitchen help request

[phil.m]

hi,

i'm trying to install sockets and spurs in my kitchen and was wondering whats the best way to go about it.

the main input into the kitchen has 2 x 4mm LN cables and 2 x 2'5mm LN cables coming in through the same conduit. plus 1 earth.

these were attached to a cooker switch (4mm). and a single socket spur(2.5mm).

the 4mm cable goes to a 30amp fuse called "cooker" at the fuse bord and the 2.5mm is part of the main "ring main" circuit, also 30 amp.

there is a separate circuit on the opposite wall called "kitchen twin" at the fuse board. this is on a 15 amp fuse.

what i need are 2 double sockets on the main wall (where the main wires come in) and a further twin socket further round on an adjacent wall.

i also need to feed a built in cooker which requires a 13amp fused spur or plug. an overhead fan, and the ignition on a gas hob.

futher round on from the "kitchen twin" socket i would like to install a washing machine socket/spur.

i hope the above photo links work and help explain things a bit better.

the main question is how would you tackle this job re; connecting it all up ??

thanks

phil

 

[pewter]

I would change consumer unit and run in new circuits.

I love a radial and would run in 3-4 circuits.

But I'm sure people will come and tell me I could save

 

[Technician]

You may also find that this is

"notifiable" work under the

dreaded Part 'P' of the Building

Regs.

I would look into this if I were you,

the guys on the forum will always

assist.

 

[wicksy]

Yes the work is in a kitchen so you need to notify it and all new circuits have to be on an RCD and by the ratings you have given it sounds like you have the old wylex breakers.

I would call a local electrician or put your area on here and I'm sure someone will be able to help you

 

[Technician]

Just to add to Wicksy's post, the critical

statement in Part 'P is that the Local Auth.

Building Control (LABC) is responsible for the

safe completion of the work, IF the householder

cannot demonstrate competence.

I believe there is a fine payable: have no idea

how much.

 

[paul b b]

There is also a minimum requirement of how many sockets there are.

As others have said..new cu and run a new ring in and cooker circuit for the hob. What rating is the cooker

 

[phil.m]

thanks,

i had an electrical condition test carried out which stated that a complete rewire was un neccessary but recommended a new cu, as you suggest. another electrician who looked at it said the old fuseboard wasn't unsafe as its on a PME system and i could get away with swapping out the old domino fusewire plug ins, for RCD or pushbutton plugins similar to these on ebay;

WYLEX PUSH BUTTON MCBS TYPE B 5 15 20 30 45 AMP WITH OR WITHOUT BASE / SHIELD | eBay

so cu aside, and regs aside. though i take on board what you're saying about that.

could i run a circuit off the main 4mm LN wires. the cooker only needs a 13 amp connection so dosen't really need a dedicated cooker switch, just a fused spur. also 2 more spurs for the gas hob ignition and chimney fan. then 3 double sockets on the same circuit. that would be in effect a radial circuit ???

then a separate radial circuit off the other twin socket which is on its own circuit. that would be just 1 double and a further w.machine spur futher round.

i'm a "competant" enough diy'er but i've never tackled this extent of electrical work before. so really i'm not sure what connection boxes to use to start the circuit off.

 

[alpha spark]

Phil you can't get rcds that are compatible with that fuse board you can get Mcbs but for what you will be doing the cables need chasing in and will need rcd protection

As previous have said you need to notify the labc when carrying these works out in a kitchen

My best suggestion is to get the job done by somebody who knows what he's doing and can sign the job off give you the correct certificate.

 

[sellers]

your first electrician sounds ok, your second doesn't have a clue.

as for your kitchen, the comment 'regs asside' proves this is going to be another one of those bad DIY installs we see all the time. I appreciate you have come on here looking for help, and the only advice I can give is to call an electrician.

 

[paul b b]

One thing i will say Phil, at least you have taken the time out to post pics and diagram!

Weather 4mm is ok for the socket radial will depend on how the cable is run...clipped...through insulation etc...

You may find it hard to run 4mm in and then spur off as it will be tight in the socket outlets. Why not rewire the whole kitchen properly? New ring and i would advise running a proper cooker circuit in, if you change your mind in the future you will have 6mm in ready...just put a socket on there for now.

And change that cu!! Don't try to update the fuses its a waste of money...future proof now

 

[Sharpend]

I'm loving the comment regs aside, what a pearl of wisdom that is!!

Should we all save some money and forget the regs. I think whilst you gave taken the time too ask advice please don't then insult us with such disrespectful comments.

 

[Andy™]

There is also a minimum requirement of how many sockets there are.

no there isnt. OSG does have a recommended number, but its not a requirement

 

[phil.m]

sorry about that comment.

ok, i've taken on board that i should get a new cu, and will get one installed.

but do i really need new circuits ?

remember the elec condition test states rewiring to be un neccessary.

i want to do at least some of this myself even if its only the chases and backboxes.

please take the time to view this photo. its the main input containing 2 separate circuits. the smaller cables are connected to the ring main and the larger to the cooker circuit.

my built in cooker instructions state that it must be attached to a 13 amp fused spur. i also need to connect the ignition from a GAS hob and a chimney fan. plus 3 double sockets.

assuming this had to be done from what is already there in my photo, how should i proceed.

i'm assuming i will need to pull out the old cast iron backbox. then put in some sort of connection unit and work the circuit round from there. does that sound about right ?

 

[Andy™]

remember the elec condition test states rewiring to be un neccessary.

which is based on current condition. if your doing alterations, then it may well need part re-wired.

 

[Sharpend]

Ok Phil, what you have is a conduit system which means you can not remove the cast iron box that you refer too without considerable damage so would advise to leave. Is the cooker remaining in same place?

 

[sellers]

What I usually find in kitchens is that there is so much jigging about that its almost always better to run in a new circuit.

By all means do the chases, that will save you some money, mount the boxes, but get a spark to do the rest.

 

[Apache]

I'm a little amazed how some of the electricians on this forum seem unaware of the building regulations they should be working to!

A kitchen is NOT a special location.

The circuit exists and ANYONE may add socket outlets or fused spurs to an existing circuit outside of a special location.

Now any NEW circuits or additions must comply with the current regulations (the biggest problem you will have is RCD protection for the cables buried in the walls). A single RCD socket is ok but the cost would add up fir the number of sockets and spurs you require. My advice would be to get an electrician in to change the consumer unit (fuse board) as it would increase the safety of the installation as a whole. It would also mean all your new cables would comply with the current regulations.

If you want to do the other work then that is up to you. You may find that if you have an electrician in who will let you work with him that by doing the wall chases, chiselling out backboxes and running cable you can save yourself some money and the electrician will just charge you to connect the sockets and test. So long as the cables are the correct size and run in the correct locations it should be fine. Don't fill in any chases until the electrician is happy.

That is what I would do.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:01 ---------- Previous post was made at 19:59 ----------

This is one of the best written and illustrated questions we have had in a LONG time. Big well done for that!

 

[alpha spark]

Who has said its a special location

Extension or modification of circuits within a kitchen need notifying

 

[sellers]

kitchens are notifiable, extensions to circuits etc, only maintenence isn't, IE changing a socket

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

Work carried out in a kitchen IS notifiable under Part P of the building regs.Any one can do this work as long as they notify the LABC 48 hours before commencement and pay a fee. As other works are also needed that are also notifiable such as work at the fusebox i would highly recommend getting a registered electrician in, one that has been recommended. A good sparky will probably save you money & time and make a better job of it. I note your fuseboard is in a Mantel unit, this along with the cast boxs makes me think its/was a Council property. The fusebox does need to be upgraded to also have RCD protection. Although many modern consumer units can be made to fit you really want one of these 10 Way Dual RCD Skeleton Consumer Unit + 100A Mains Switch Other types & makes are available. I have fitted plenty of these although i prefer RCBO's & a main switch. Have you checked the main earth sizes and bonding to gas & water ?