MCB to fit LAP consumer unit

[Sidewinder]

Not at the coal face ................................ in domestic ...............

Domestic is a race to the bottom, the good guys, like yourself are being forced to cut corners as much as you can because of the idiots who are not competent and are pricing low because they need the work, they can't get jobs on the books because no one will employ them with their 5 day courses, which means that the jobs are being priced such, that it is difficult to cover the costs for full compliance.

I HATE domestic work, but I do the odd bit now and then, but due to the other stuff, my overheads and being VAT registered means that I can;t compete in an area where for example the going rate for a self employed subbie or through the agencies with own van, own tools, own training, no benefits, no holiday pay, own insurance is £13/hr.

So these guys then charge domestic clients the same sort of money, they are working for wages, not running a business, so it's a rubbish market around here.

Thus, I avoid it like the plague.

Domestic is just a part of the electrical industry remember, and the laws and standards cover much more than just that.

 

[Murdoch]

Domestic is just a part of the electrical industry remember, and the laws and standards cover much more than just that.

But with nobody to do anything about maintaining or even raising standards is it any surprise their are so many "so called" sparks messing up installations - and don't say the CPS's do this because they don't .............................

Back the the JPEL / 64 point - its full of vested interests, some of them there to make a profit.

What JPEL / 64 needs to do - is pull the 18th edition - submit it to the Plain English Society and let them advise on the clarity and wording of it ................................

As I said before, the more it gets changed, the more people ignore it.

 

[kerching]

MCBs

many many years ago, Deke may remember?, Wylex sent out a letter to all contractors warning of the dangers of fitting Proteus/Centaur fuses and plug in breakers to their boards .  This must be at least 35/40 years ago and there was mention then of invalidated warranties etc

 

[Sidewinder]

But with nobody to do anything about maintaining or even raising standards is it any surprise their are so many "so called" sparks messing up installations - and don't say the CPS's do this because they don't .............................

Totally agree.

Back the the JPEL / 64 point - its full of vested interests, some most of them there to make a profit.

^ edited that for you!

What JPEL / 64 needs to do - is pull the 18th edition - submit it to the Plain English Society and let them advise on the clarity and wording of it ................................

That can't/won't happen as most of the wording comes from the IEC standard, and we as a Country have signed up as members of the IEC.

As I said before, the more it gets changed, the more people ignore it.

Technology moves on which is why standards change, but the laws haven't remember that the Health and Safety At Work Act is from 1974 and has hardly changed, the same as the Electricity At Work Regulations 1989 and hardly changed in that time.

MCBs

many many years ago, Deke may remember?, Wylex sent out a letter to all contractors warning of the dangers of fitting Proteus/Centaur fuses and plug in breakers to their boards .  This must be at least 35/40 years ago and there was mention then of invalidated warranties etc

It's not just warranties, it invalidates the type testing and the approvals process for the assembly to be legally placed on the market under the UK product safety laws, that is the crux of it.

 

[Evans Electric]

I do remember something about that  ...there was also a problem with  Wylex';s  own plug-in   , button style MCBs    ...I think it was the fault rating which was 3K  ...then other makes of plug-ins  began to appear .   

 

[Murdoch]

"That can't/won't happen as most of the wording comes from the IEC standard, and we as a Country have signed up as members of the IEC."

Hum .......... so all the other member of the IEC have badly worded regs too

That is such a lame duck excuse - blame another committee.......................

 

[Sidewinder]

Unfortunately Murdoch, that is the truth of it, the wording comes from on high, and is mainly written by people whose first language is not English!!!

Also, British Standards are no longer allowed to be prescriptive, and tell people how to do the job, this is again from "on high" the IEC & ISO.

The philosophy is goal setting, for compliance with the laws, rather than a how to manual.

 

[Murdoch]

Unfortunately Murdoch, that is the truth of it, the wording comes from on high, and is mainly written by people whose first language is not English!!!

Also, British Standards are no longer allowed to be prescriptive, and tell people how to do the job, this is again from "on high" the IEC & ISO.

The philosophy is goal setting, for compliance with the laws, rather than a how to manual.

And hence why it MUST be re written to improve the clarity

I can't imagine the Germans copying it word for word ..

 

[Sidewinder]

And hence why it MUST be re written to improve the clarity

I can't imagine the Germans copying it word for word ..

Well they are supposed to, as the IEC standard will be published in German so they will take the IEC text from the German version.

The issue is that individuals are prevented from sitting on BSI panels, such as JPEL64 by the rules that are set in place by the IEC/ISO unless they are specialists co-opted in for certain tasks.

So it will be difficult for the guys on the tools to influence things.

The schemes all have their influence, as do the manufacturers.

What is unclear is how much influence the manufacturers have on the IEC panels.

I know people who have tried to get onto JPEL in an attempt to make a difference, and this has been quashed by the old guard, some of whom have been retired for many years now.

 

[Phoenix]

Back to the original query, the LAP MCBs look like havells powersafe (their commercial range). Now I think havells are getting hard to get, but I think the current newlec range from newyeys is also rebadged havells

LAP:

HAVELLS:

NEWLEC:

Now I am normally aganst mix and match, however I make an exception where it is clear that its badge engineering going on, if you look at the side of the breakers you can see they came off the same production line.

Similar to Memshield 2 and Bill Tailisman plus, etc

 

[Murdoch]

The badge engineering is a very good point .........

my Crystal ball sees a raft of C2’s on EICR’s as of January next year ......

 

[binky]

But the cover is Wylex ......... as are the other internal parts .....

so so that’s not an option

I was of the (mis-informed?) opinion that it was only mixing MCBs that was the problem due to potential overheating problems MCB to MCB.  I really don't see how a container is a problem, especially when you can still buy enclosures for knocking up your own small boards

 

[Sidewinder]

I was of the (mis-informed?) opinion that it was only mixing MCBs that was the problem due to potential overheating problems MCB to MCB.  I really don't see how a container is a problem, especially when you can still buy enclosures for knocking up your own small boards

It's not necessarily an overheating, problem, there may not be a problem what so ever, there may only be a problem under the "perfect storm" conditions, there may be an issue the first time something trips.

This is the issue, the uncertainty.

Also, the product liability falls on the person who puts the assembly on the market, if, it is not in accordance with the units that have been type tested by the enclosure manufacturer.

How many domestic installers have product liability insurance to cover them for the design, manufacture and supply of products?

 

[Evans Electric]

So it will be difficult for the guys on the tools to influence things.

I'd say we were the very last people to have any influence .     

 

[rapparee]

Back to the original query, the LAP MCBs look like havells powersafe (their commercial range). Now I think havells are getting hard to get, but I think the current newlec range from newyeys is also rebadged havells

LAP:

HAVELLS:

NEWLEC:

Now I am normally aganst mix and match, however I make an exception where it is clear that its badge engineering going on, if you look at the side of the breakers you can see they came off the same production line.

Similar to Memshield 2 and Bill Tailisman plus, etc

I fitted a 3 pole Schneider MCB yesterday into a Merlin Gerin board. The Schneider braker actually had Merlin Gerin stamped on the side of it.

Square D would also be the exact same profile.

 

[Sidewinder]

I fitted a 3 pole Schneider MCB yesterday into a Merlin Gerin board. The Schneider braker actually had Merlin Gerin stamped on the side of it.

Square D would also be the exact same profile.

Schneider & Merlin Gerin are one in the same, Schneider have issued a memo stating that they can be mixed and matched in the respective boards, I have a copy.

 

[Evans Electric]

The last few posts have highlighted the extent of the confusion that reigns  with this "Badging " of products .

I was told at the wholesalers that most MCBs etc  originate from one of three factories. 

But still the Regs committee whatever they're called seem to be heaping the responsibility upon the last link in the chain ...the  installer.        The installer who is left spending his precious time  trying to track down  some  cheapo piece of MCB shyte  that  is no longer readily available  for him to drop into a board .      Then he discovers , as above ,  there at least three  versions of the exact same device  but with different names on them .   

AND....  after reading Rapparound's post ..I could have helped out the OP  as I have a few Havells  in stock. 

 

[kerching]

Do we have a specific Reg number for this?

and on a slight tangent...what is the situation with the 'regs not being retrospective'?

what I am trying to say, badly, is "Can we note a mismatched breaker in a board, quote the NEW Reg AND say it was wrong when done originally?" If you see what I mean?

i have now confused myself

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

5 odd years ago we fitted 2, 32 way Wylex 3 phase boards to a very large house. I fitted all Logic Rcbo's (1/3 the price) & Logic main switches, then removed the Wylex badge  

 

[ProDave]

My only input to this thread, is I will not fit Wylex or MK boards, because they keep on changing the design of their mcb's.  Fit a current Wylex or MK mcb into an old board of the same make, and it will likely be a worse fit than fitting a "wrong" make of MCB.

For this reason I like Hager. they have been going donkeys years and their mcb's are still the same size and fit perfectly. The same also goes for BG if you want a cheap board, but that might just be that BG have not been around long enough to change supplier and hence change design.

So if we are going to have this law about mix and match, should it not also oblige the manufacturers to stick to a standard design and keep to it, or commit to still supplying older types if they do upgrade a design?