New RCD tripping

[Murdoch]

OP - what do your CPS technical line suggest?

 

[Mell]

I don't belong to the cps and as for paperwork I'm on about verification certificate and schedule of results i dont use a pc i do it all on written forms and if you read earlier I have done each circuit individually as per the schedule of results and at every point of each test continuity of r1 r2 and rn and all ok, had pass results on all my circuits doing IR, test polarity was proven by first test and then measured my ze which then with my r1 and r2 gave me my zs which then I checked with the regs and all okay so then its the RCD test which all downstairs passed so tell me which test I have done wrong when everything tells me its passed.

 

[Murdoch]

I don't belong to the cps and as for paperwork I'm on about verification certificate and schedule of results i dont use a pc i do it all on written forms and if you read earlier I have done each circuit individually as per the schedule of results and at every point of each test continuity of r1 r2 and rn and all ok, had pass results on all my circuits doing IR, test polarity was proven by first test and then measured my ze which then with my r1 and r2 gave me my zs which then I checked with the regs and all okay so then its the RCD test which all downstairs passed so tell me which test I have done wrong when everything tells me its passed.

so how are planning to comply with part p?

 

[Mell]

What do you mean comply to part p 

 

[Murdoch]

What do you mean comply to part p 

part p of the building regs .... free download , recommend you read it ...

 

[Mell]

OK will do thanks I've never had reason to join as this is not my full time job I'm an a v engineer do stage lighting and sound systems around the country do the electrics for my company, I've done this consumer unit as a favour for a friend but haven't come across this problem before.

 

[kerching]

Probably said before but "unless in Scotland" this work is notifiable to local Building Control

 

[Murdoch]

OK will do thanks I've never had reason to join as this is not my full time job I'm an a v engineer do stage lighting and sound systems around the country do the electrics for my company, I've done this consumer unit as a favour for a friend but haven't come across this problem before.

which is code for no insurance, no tax, no vat, no part p

 

[Mell]

What ever, i come on here for some guidance from experts and all you get is ridiculed for not having the full expertize, we all started somewhere and had to ask questions at sometime in our career, unfortunately I was a late starter with electrics and still a bit green only passed my exams a few months back and I don't have the luxury to ask a fellow employee who's got decades of experience for any guidance I rely on this site, but unfortunately I feel its the same as other forums with people ready to shoot you down because of a lack of knowledge.

 

[OnOff]

What ever, i come on here for some guidance from experts and all you get is ridiculed for not having the full expertize, we all started somewhere and had to ask questions at sometime in our career, unfortunately I was a late starter with electrics and still a bit green only passed my exams a few months back and I don't have the luxury to ask a fellow employee who's got decades of experience for any guidance I rely on this site, but unfortunately I feel its the same as other forums with people ready to shoot you down because of a lack of knowledge.

That's a bit unfair on the responders to your thread. They were offering nothing but help. You can't really complain when somebody has a gentle dig when it turns out you're working illegally. (I've seen a Hell of a lot nastier comments). I'm not making that up. The Building Regs are statutory. 

So two neutral bars in that cu I expect. You've checked all the circuit Ns on one RCD go to one bar and all the circuit Ns on the other RCD go to the other bar? There's not a little factory or otherwise link between the two neutral bars?

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

What ever, i come on here for some guidance from experts and all you get is ridiculed for not having the full expertize, we all started somewhere and had to ask questions at sometime in our career, unfortunately I was a late starter with electrics and still a bit green only passed my exams a few months back and I don't have the luxury to ask a fellow employee who's got decades of experience for any guidance I rely on this site, but unfortunately I feel its the same as other forums with people ready to shoot you down because of a lack of knowledge.

No one is ridiculed or shot down for lack of expertise or knowledge...

But when someone has apparently no understanding of publicly available statutory industry guidance that the rest of us do have to follow...

Are you suggesting this should be ignored and not mentioned?  

If so what other important bits should we ignore?

And how will you learn or get understanding if we do not tell you?

For your benefit AND anyone else reading this thread it should always be made clear what the legal requirements are when replacing a consumer unit,

Not just which wires to put where to get it working!

If you have passed your exams a few months back Part-P building regs will almost certainly have been discussed...

As the legal status of BS7671 and other related Acts & Regulations are discussed within it!

The current edition of BS7671 On-Site-Guide page 12, section 1.2 has the section heading "Building Regulations". Which you should be familiar with..?? :C

Late starter / early starter / middle starter or whatever, is not an excuse for ignoring the industry standard guidance that ALL persons working with electricity should either have copies of or access to copies.

Your argument is akin to some one learning to drive at a more mature age, but choosing to ignore the Highway code as they are a late starter and need to get experience driving first.

Unfortunately many of us are self employed with no-one else to ask..

But we do not have the luxury to ignore that basic rules and regulations applicable to the industry we have chosen to work in...

Or to have to pay membership fees, insurance, maintain instrument calibration, up-to-date copies of relevant documents  etc....

And to provide Electrical certificates and Building regulations compliance certificates for our customers whenever adding new circuits, replacing consumer units etc..

 

[phil d]

What ever, i come on here for some guidance from experts and all you get is ridiculed for not having the full expertize, we all started somewhere and had to ask questions at sometime in our career, unfortunately I was a late starter with electrics and still a bit green only passed my exams a few months back and I don't have the luxury to ask a fellow employee who's got decades of experience for any guidance I rely on this site, but unfortunately I feel its the same as other forums with people ready to shoot you down because of a lack of knowledge.

It isn't a case of 'having a go' as you put it, there are ways to do things in this game, just as there are in anything in life, you learn the rules and follow them, in my part of the world Part P isn't so much of a problem, the building control department are more bothered about your skils than whether you're a member of a scam or not, I've done paperwork for jobs without being in a scam and had them accepted, why? because a little chat with the inspector and he soon realises that I know what I'm doing, I've 30 odd years experience in the job after all.

Your first mistake with that board change was diving straight in, NEVER, EVER, attempt a board change without doing IR tests first, if you had done them you'd have found the problem you have now got and it wouldn'tbe half as bad, ok the guy may not have had a modern board, but he'd have still had a fully working electricity system, and that isn't a dig by the way it's sound proven advice.

I remember one guy I met at a conference several years ago, he like you had gone into electrics late in life and done a short course, his answer to any problem he didn't understand was to ask on a forum, not the best idea, yes on here there are some damn fine sparks with years of experience, but there will always be others who haven't a clue, take the wrong advice and you're in a world of hurt. I remember this guy telling me that he went to one job, changing an outside light but was unable to isolate it, his solution, tell the customer to call in a proper electrician! My solution would have been to find out where it was isolated from, even if it meant shutting off the mains, no big problem in a domestic situation, had it been a hospital, or a factory, then I'd have done the job live, I was trained to work live back in the day.

The trouble with short courses is they teach you a little, not the stuff you really need, you'll get told stuff like ' everything always has a point of isolation, like an outside light having a switch' unfortunately this isn't so, a lot of pir floods were fitted by simply taking a feed from the nearest light upstairs, running the cable through the loft and mounting said light on the fascia, or just below it, it got the job done without tearing half the house to bits only these courses don't teach stuff like that.It's always 'perfect world' scenarios, floorboards will always lift easily, there's never something stopping you from drilling exactly where you want to and there is never ever a fault on a circuit that cannot be found in less than five minutes.

People very often say, 'oh that doesn';t meet the regs, it's illegal' , at that point I stop listening, I already know they haven't a clue by this point, the regs, BS7671 are not legally enforceable, they are simply a big stick to hit you with when it all goes wrong. As another poster pointed out, building regs are a statutory instrument, they are enforceable by law and can put you in court, but they will use 7671 to hit you with! Now as a famous person once said, 'rules are for the observance of fools and the guidance of wise men' , Yes there are times when I've done things that were not to 7671, but I have the knowledge and experience, as do others on here to be able to know when I can deviate from the regs, and more importantly, should anything end up in court, I would be able to justify WHY I did what I did, there has to be a good reason, not just because you felt like it.

Our profession isn't one you can just dip into as and when you feel like, it's a vocation, a bit like being a doctor or a vet or something, you can be in the game full time and in five years you still only know a gnats fart of bugger all,experience is everything. Please please don't go all prickly when someone criticises you, it's part of the learning process, if you can't take criticism then to be honest you shouldn't have joined, the profession I mean, not the forum, these lads are all bloody good blokes and they will help you, but you have to help yourself too, not going all huffy when you don't get the answer you want would be a good start, best wishes, Phil

 

[Murdoch]

What ever, i come on here for some guidance from experts and all you get is ridiculed for not having the full expertize, we all started somewhere and had to ask questions at sometime in our career, unfortunately I was a late starter with electrics and still a bit green only passed my exams a few months back and I don't have the luxury to ask a fellow employee who's got decades of experience for any guidance I rely on this site, but unfortunately I feel its the same as other forums with people ready to shoot you down because of a lack of knowledge.

Who is rudiculing you?

I've been asking questions to try to help you, but your lack of reasonable answers does point at lack of experience, so you have a pop at us.

None of us know it all and at a time when technology is constantly changing and the regs keep changing is it surprising that those who play by the regs and tax rules get a bit miffed when others don't.

You have a salaried job, most of us are SE with all the risks associated 

Just make sure you declare your 2nd income and get insurance and CPS membership ...

 

[Mell]

Hi Phil and others firstly I apologise for my rant earlier and no disrespect to anyone who's tried to help me, I'm just frustrated with myself at not realising all the regs you got to keep on top of, I was one of those blokes who did the short courses back inn 2008 and then just done my testing and inspecting a few months back, I don't class myself as an electrician but my A V  company sent me on this course I mentioned, but always only doing spurs and had my work signed of from a local sparky but then the company decides to put me through testing and inspecting like you said the test is an ideal world test but they don't teach you fault finding and the techniques which frustrates me as I want to do a proper and safe job, anyway apologise again about the rant  earlier.

 

[phil d]

Hi Phil and others firstly I apologise for my rant earlier and no disrespect to anyone who's tried to help me, I'm just frustrated with myself at not realising all the regs you got to keep on top of, I was one of those blokes who did the short courses back inn 2008 and then just done my testing and inspecting a few months back, I don't class myself as an electrician but my A V  company sent me on this course I mentioned, but always only doing spurs and had my work signed of from a local sparky but then the company decides to put me through testing and inspecting like you said the test is an ideal world test but they don't teach you fault finding and the techniques which frustrates me as I want to do a proper and safe job, anyway apologise again about the rant  earlier.

No worries mate, it makes you a bigger bloke for the apology, Sadly I suspect you may have fallen for all the hype surrounding the short courses, how you'll earn megga bucks quite easily. Sadly they don't tell you about all the money you'll be laying out for tools, test gear, regs books, and a host of other things, plus sitting loads more courses over the years, not to mention that despite what they tell you as they gleefully part you from your hard earned cash it's only much later after passing the course that you realise that in actual fact you know bugger all, lol.

It's a bit like passing your driving test this game, just because you've got a licence doesn't make you a decent driver, that comes after driving thousands of miles.

Stick around, you'll learn a lot here, these guys are sound, it's just us old buggers are a  bit growly at times I suppose if I'm honest we just get a bit tired at times of some of the chancers we get, I know myself that I do get a tad upset sometimes when I end up working for firms and despite only getting paid the same as the younger sparks I end up having to show them how to do the job. just remember one thing, there is only ever one stupid question, and that is the one you didn't ask,  a common version of this is when you spend hours wondering why something has no power to it despite power at the breaker, then eventually you stumble across a tripped RCD hidden in a cupboard somewhere, oh if only you'd asked the customer! Still we've all done it at some point, or something very similar. lol

 

[kerching]

My money is still on a borrowed neutral OR a neutral in the wrong neutral bar

split load boards do not comply with the regs......discuss ( question for father and eldest child ) ....10 points

 

[Mell]

Thanks all for your comments I'm going back tomorrow to redo my IR test on circuits and see what I get and do it the way Murdoch told me to do it. Luckily the house is not lived in at the moment just a shell with plaster board on, thanks again 

 

[Murdoch]

Thanks all for your comments I'm going back tomorrow to redo my IR test on circuits and see what I get and do it the way Murdoch told me to do it. Luckily the house is not lived in at the moment just a shell with plaster board on, thanks again 

Good plan.

Being empty should make things easier because you should be able to see all the accessories and there shouldn't be any loads connected apart from light bulbs ...

A note book and pen or pencil is essential and be methodical. Leave the CPC's in the bar and IR each circuit 1 by 1, a global at this point is almost a waste of time.

If the IR does show nothing then look for continuity from the "dead" circuits to the live side of the board (beware if you have a shared or crossed neutral, then when its out of the board on the "dead" side it could well be live - so double check the cables all the time.

Fault finding takes time and patience .......... unless you strike lucky 

PS when you say a "shell" is it not plastered?

Also you need to put the down lights on the same RCD as the up sockets and vice versa

My money is still on a borrowed neutral OR a neutral in the wrong neutral bar

split load boards do not comply with the regs......discuss ( question for father and eldest child ) ....10 points

Hum ........... as long as the sheds pile them high and sell them cheap then they will still be fitted. 

I haven't installed one for about 4 years - RCBO boards are far better in so many ways

 

[Mell]

Hi Murdock 

Yes the walls are plastered just not painted or wallpapered and no carpets and yes I've researched about borrowed neutrals and I read about once you pull a borrowed neutral it then becomes live thanks for the advice, I'm just wondering because there has not been any heating on for a few weeks and this damp weather could moister be an issue.

Thanks.

Mel 

 

[kerching]

read about once you pull a borrowed neutral it then becomes live 

Any neutral on an energised circuit supplying a load will be 'live' once disconnected

just saying