Newly self-employed, need help pricing a job :)

[SwanSpark]

Hi there!

Recently I left my firm and am currently ticking over with small domestic maintainance jobs and a bit from the plumber. 

I've been asked to price for a full 1st and 2nd fix shop fit. I'm more than comfortable with the work that needs doing although as I've only ever really known a hourly rate I'm struggling to price this one! The customer is insistant on little or no mark-ups on materials too. 

My estimate on the materials required...

- 55 x LED 600x600 sky tiles

- 6 x PIR sensors

- 50 x white double sockets (20 of these metal boxes and need chasing into a 9x4m wall, the other 30 will need plasterboard boxes)

- 12 x white double socket with USB ports + metal boxes

- 3 x double floor sockets

- 250-300m 2.5 T+E

- 150m 1.5 T+E

- 5 x Hager 32A RCBO

- 5 x Hager 6A RCBO

- allowance for plugs+screws/capping/clips/plastic trunking

- Emergency lighting supplied

- fire/alarm systems by separate contractor

Access for lighting is relatively good with a grid ceiling with no tiles in and wooden joists above running the cables.

Help needed estimating the time 1st and 2nd fix will take and anything I might have or may miss.

Thanks in advance!

Swan

 

[ProDave]

I price on 1 hour per point and it's usually not far out, usually a bit under an hour.

 

[Essex1]

Welcome but come on mate. 

How can anyone give you advice on this?  So many variables and no idea what your overheads are. 

One thing  is for sure. If your customer wants no mark up on the materials tell him to order, pay for and take on the warranty for them. 

 

[Sharpend]

I'd ask them if you get everything at cost price when you use their shop. With an attitude like that I'd leave them to find an alternative spark. 

 

[steptoe]

What that man @Essex1 said about materials,

And you will charge day rate for waiting around when he runs out of stuff, got the wrong stuff, didn't get stuff, etc etc etc

 

[SwanSpark]

Welcome but come on mate. 

How can anyone give you advice on this?  So many variables and no idea what your overheads are. 

One thing  is for sure. If your customer wants no mark up on the materials tell him to order, pay for and take on the warranty for them. 

I should've been more specific I know haha. My overheads are negligable and I was planning on adding a bit on at the end to cover variable's and the fact that he's certainly the type to try knocking me down at some point 

 

[Essex1]

I should've been more specific I know haha. My overheads are negligable and I was planning on adding a bit on at the end to cover variable's and the fact that he's certainly the type to try knocking me down at some point 

Ok. How much would you like to earn a day?

 

[SwanSpark]

@Essex1 I'd like to take away £20ph give or take (spark rates in swansea are 11% below national average)

 

[Andy™]

tell them to get all materials, and that any time wasted waiting for correct materials or any other problems with them will be charged at hourly rate, and remind him that there is no warranty on any of them from you so if anything does go faulty then you will charge go to remove it, let him replace it, then charge again to re-fit it

 

[New Venture!]

I agree with Sharpend. I've been caught out with a similar thing when I started out. Customer didn't want me "making a profit out of supplying kit" so sourced it himself. Like an idiot I agreed. Cheap and nasty tat was what he supplied but of course when it failed it was all my fault and he expected it fixed for free. Now I price for a complete job, supply and fit. If they don't like it, sorry but I walk away. The returns on dodgy jobs are just not worth it.

Regards pricing that job, how many days would you guess it will take? 

 

[Essex1]

@Essex1 I'd like to take away £20ph give or take (spark rates in swansea are 11% below national average)

Ok. So how many days do you expect this job to take. And how many men per day will you need?

 

[SwanSpark]

@Essex1 @New Venture! It's the timing that I'm struggling with the most, I'm not the quickest but not slow either, also wondering if I should get a labourer on board for this or not? I can fly through the second fix alone but unsure as to whether it's worth putting more on the price to allow for another bloke during 1st fix? And would I charge a mark up on an extra man?

 

[Essex1]

@Essex1 @New Venture! It's the timing that I'm struggling with the most, I'm not the quickest but not slow either, also wondering if I should get a labourer on board for this or not? I can fly through the second fix alone but unsure as to whether it's worth putting more on the price to allow for another bloke during 1st fix? And would I charge a mark up on an extra man?

Of course you would charge a mark up.  If you have no overheads then I would suggest 20%. 

 

[Andy™]

if you have a labourer helping you, then it will take you less time to do the job and his rate will be less than yours, so total cost may be lower

 

[SwanSpark]

Ok thanks, so rougly with a labourer how long do you think 1st fix would take? It's a stab in the dark I know but I'll take my chances on whether I make as much as I'd like to or not @Essex1 @New Venture!

 

[Sidewinder]

@Essex1 I'd like to take away £20ph give or take (spark rates in swansea are 11% below national average)

Only because people are prepared to buy work, work for peanuts, and take rubbish like this from customers.

Carry on working like this then I'll never have any competition from you!

Who is designing the EM lighting & signing that off?

Does the shop keeper sell his goods for cost, or almost no margin?

If not why not, & why does he expect you to run a business differently to the way he does?

Just sit down and imagine your way through the job and how long it will take you, if you are comfortable with the work then you'll know what needs doing.

I've got something similar to do as soon as I can, relocating about 40 machines in 5 classrooms, playing musical chairs with them, disconnect, dismantle, move, re-assemble, provide supplies & re-connect.

Re-locate or design & install about 6 off LEV systems (required under COSHH).

Building is pseudo listed, city centre location, got to sort out access etc., one of the LEV exhausts foes up above 4th floor level.

Client as yet has no plans, and no info, pricing required yesterday, no M&E data for the buildings.

All to be completed over 3 weeks in the summer break this year.

All I can do is sit down with a beer, list out the tasks, and how long each will take, then look at the labour available and how I can plan it to work, then work out the man hours, the rates I will need to pay, the materials I need & the profit margins I need, add the lot together, sort out some project T's & C's, payment terms and stuff in a price.

Simples!

 

[Essex1]

Ok thanks, so rougly with a labourer how long do you think 1st fix would take? It's a stab in the dark I know but I'll take my chances on whether I make as much as I'd like to or not @Essex1 @New Venture!

No one else can answer without seeing the job. 

 

[SwanSpark]

Only because people are prepared to buy work, work for peanuts, and take rubbish like this from customers.

Carry on working like this then I'll never have any competition from you!

Who is designing the EM lighting & signing that off?

Does the shop keeper sell his goods for cost, or almost no margin?

If not why not, & why does he expect you to run a business differently to the way he does?

Just sit down and imagine your way through the job and how long it will take you, if you are comfortable with the work then you'll know what needs doing.

I've got something similar to do as soon as I can, relocating about 40 machines in 5 classrooms, playing musical chairs with them, disconnect, dismantle, move, re-assemble, provide supplies & re-connect.

Re-locate or design & install about 6 off LEV systems (required under COSHH).

Building is pseudo listed, city centre location, got to sort out access etc., one of the LEV exhausts foes up above 4th floor level.

Client as yet has no plans, and no info, pricing required yesterday, no M&E data for the buildings.

All to be completed over 3 weeks in the summer break this year.

All I can do is sit down with a beer, list out the tasks, and how long each will take, then look at the labour available and how I can plan it to work, then work out the man hours, the rates I will need to pay, the materials I need & the profit margins I need, add the lot together, sort out some project T's & C's, payment terms and stuff in a price.

Simples!

Let's hope TATA doesn't go down then or that rate might get even lower! Rather you than me on that job haha. 

 

[Sidewinder]

No chance of my rate going down mate, it's going up these days, supply & demand & all that.

I hope that Tata doesn't close, but I'm not worried about the competition what so ever.

 

[Evans Electric]

That customer of yours is getting on my wick ...I've met loads like that finger ....we had one last year ..was coming out with all that carp about materials  etc  .  We walked TBH ...not having that after all these years.

Right Swanee ,  whats good about this is , you know  your limitations and are willing to learn so stick with this Forum and we'll do all we can .    Trouble is , as said above , none of us can cost it for you , certainly without seeing the job .

So to start with I'd certainly go with what the others have said ,     he's taking the Pee , if theres no mark up let him buy it all , those Sky Tiles will be a lot of money to lay out for a customer you think will play up at the end over payment .      Be very careful, his sort will eat you for breakfast as a novice to self employment .     Don't give him the chance ,  believe me ....take a look at my "Signature" ...some will rob you with a sixgun and some with a fountain pen. 

No way should you be laying out money for his materials when he,s coming that lettuced . Listen to your Uncle Deke .

Now you need to sit down & work out a rate ....£20 / hour    is £16 after tax in your pocket .....we all have overheads however small , I presume you run a vehicle , pay insurance etc etc .  Don't know your circumstances but can I suggest not less than £23 / hour .   Theres no point being self employed if you are working for just wages.  Most commercial work here would be £25 /hr 

Then just sit and think about the job ,  write down each phase of the work ...fusebds ...1st fix lighting ...1st fix power ...same for 2nd fix .

As Dave said ....  price your lights on 1 hour each etc .  Add it up and theres your time  X your rate = your quote .  

Lets face it if you had to do an extra day , what would it matter  ?   You'll win that back on the next job.

This customer sounds very much to me as if his first language is'nt English & he's probably not a Christian but then I'm a racist . !!

Be VERY VERY careful with your dealings with this guy .    You are a  SELF EMPLOYED SPARK ...we are a proud nation ....we are not some guy from the pub doing a bit of painting for him .........you are better than him ....you tower above him ...you are a SPARKS  my son , stand tall  and take no carp .