Recessed Lighting Safety... And What About Leds?

[Larches]

I've recently moved into a 20 yr old house where various recessed halogen downlights are fitted, and the surveyor said they needed fireproofing.  Having been up into the loft, I see the most recent (in the en-suite loo) have tubular black plastic casing above them, and the loft insulation has been cut away to allow a clear space around them.  Quite a neat job.  I _think_ these are fire rated.

However, the recessed lights to the bedroom and main bathroom have the decorative surrounds spring-mounted in a pretty rough hole cut into the plasterboard, and just a wire going to the connector on the back of the bulb (20-35W 12V MR16).  These had loft insulation over the top of the lights, wiring and junction box, and chipboard over the top of the insulation.  Having pulled back the insulation, the underside of it is significantly darkened just where it was sitting over the top of the lights.  This didn't look good to me and I've currently got the insulation propped up to keep it off the lights, hoping that is safer in the interim until I can find a better (and more affordable) solution.  Obviously the house hasn't burnt down yet, but it does worry me.

Question is... if I went to the expense of swapping the halogen lights for LED ones (guessing I'd need to swap the transformer for a suitable driver too), would that be any safer in terms of fire risk, or would they need insulation clearance and possibly fire hoods too?  Guessing the LEDS will run cooler, but that the risks of electrical fault, sparks etc will remain... and with LED bulbs at about a tenner each (maybe more for decent ones) and a total of 15 recessed halogens to replace, it's hardly cheap to jump on the LED bandwagon at the moment.

Also, this is a real novice question, possibly a daft one, but if there's a transformer running say two or four LV bulbs, is there any problem if one or two of those bulbs is permanently removed (presumably the point of the transformer is that it supplies the current in demand, i.e. no minimum/predetermined draw)?  And is there any safety risk in leaving either a dud bulb or just a disconnected cable in this kind of setup?

Also got recessed halogens in the kitchen  - these are 12V G4 bulbs in a shallow casing with glass lenses, built into the kitchen units.  Not much chance of fireproofing those.

On a steep learning curve here - never had pesky halogens before...

 

[batty]

JCC led 7's can be covered in insulation are ip rated as standard so can be used in bathrooms and are only 7 watts so will save energy only down side is cost. I pay around £35 per fitting at present. 

welcome to the forum.

 

[Steve3948]

Philips do a Master LED Mr16 direct replacement for a LV lamp, works with most LV transformers, but cost is around £15 + Vat.

Warm White is the same as 35W and the Natural is the same as a 50W, 36 degree and 40 degree, so spread is good.

I have fitted 60 odd all worked fine, they do dim and non dim.

Halers H2 are a nice fitting, price £22 -£26 + Vat, 7 year guarantee.

 

[boltonsparky]

Standard fire rated GU10 down lighters are pretty cheap nowadays. Think about swapping the existing 12v ones for fire rated 230v GU10 ones (you can usually match the diameter with a bit of shopping around), make sure there is a clear space all around the fitting and that insulation isn't able to spring back or fall back onto the fitting over time.

You'll find they are far more reliable than the MR16s, far safer as you're upgrading from non fire rated to fire rated, and then in time if you have the spare cash you can get direct replacement GU10 LED lamps for the GU10 fittings for around £10 each making them energy efficient and saving you some money on the leccy bill.

Answering your question on the running of a few lamps from the one transformer, it's fine if one of the lamps is removed or fails, the only problem is if you put lamps of a higher wattage than the transformer is rated at, the transformer will fail. For example a 100w transformer with 4 fittings on it your maximum wattage per lamp would be 25w (20w lamp). 

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

Your surveyor is misguided. Fireproof downlights are to stop the spread of fire from a room to one above. They do not stop a fire from spreading due to the heat of the lamp. Although fire-rated lamps are a good thing, its all i fit they are not going to do much in a old house where the ceilings and doors are not firerated. They also are not necessarily needed  with a loft space overhead, but they do keep crap off the lamps. If anything fire rated fittings cause more heat build up than an open fitting.

Anyhow, bite the bullet and buy some LED lamps. I would not advise buying MR11 (12v) types as the manufacturers claim much shorter lamp life if the driver is not replaced & from your description of the wrong connections get some GU10 lampholders with covered connectors with GU10 led lamps. Non dimmable are good value  but dimmable are still a bit pricey

 

[ProDave]

I would question do you really LIKE downlighters in your bedroom?

To me, they are the most energy inefficient lighting known to man. That, together with the requirement to make a gap in the insulation for them, thereby allowing cold spots on your ceiling and heat loss, makes them a very bad idea.

I won't have them in my house, and if I had the misfortune of buying a house with them fitted, I would be seriously looking at going back to more traditional lighting that doesn't force me to compromise the buildings insulation.

 

[Sparky Bob]

I'd go for LEDs without question. The JCC LED 7, mentioned above would be my preference. There is a rider to that for the bathroom. From the way you describe the property you may not have RCD protection for the lighting circuits. If that's the case, ELV lights are allowed in the bathroom but mains voltage (GU10 or LED) are not.

 

[Doc Hudson]

I'd go for LEDs without question. The JCC LED 7, mentioned above would be my preference. There is a rider to that for the bathroom. From the way you describe the property you may not have RCD protection for the lighting circuits. If that's the case, ELV lights are allowed in the bathroom but mains voltage (GU10 or LED) are not.

The voltage rating of the lamps used in the bathroom will be dependent upon the physical relationship to the zones, not whether they are RCD protected or not and maintenance replacement does not necessitate bringing wiring up to compliance with current regulations.

Doc H.

I would question do you really LIKE downlighters in your bedroom?  To me, they are the most energy inefficient lighting known to man.

Downlighter fittings themselves will be no more energy inefficient than any other type of fittings using similar lamps. It will be the types of lamp installed in the fitting that would govern the efficiency.  GLS, CFL, Halogen, LED etc and their respective lumen's per watt.

Doc H.

 

[Larches]

Thanks everyone.  Lots of good points in there and plenty to mull over.

Much appreciated...

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

If you do start implementing a swap over to LED's...

make sure you are satisfied with the colour rendering of the light before you commit to buying lots of them...

even some of the the alleged "warm-white" LED's can still look very cold, crisp and clinical...

not very cosy and warm in a living area..

If you have dimmers on the lights...  make sure you get dimmable LED's .

also you may need to change the dimmer switch itself to stop them flickering

our forum sponsor LED hut is a very good source of LED stuff and their delivery service is top notch!

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