Replacing Low Voltage Spotlights... Who's Right?

[Larches]

Well, I've just got a few quotes for what I thought essentially boiled down to some rewiring, and blimey, it's a mixed bag, ranging from £120 to 400. And I'm confused, so if anyone in the know is willing to read the details and give me their thoughts, I'd be grateful.

To give it some context, when we moved into this house we inherited a load of 12v (MR16) recessed halogen spotlights upstairs, which I tend to regard as a triumph of pretty over practical. Each burning a 40 or 50 watt hole in my wallet, but not only that, doing their best to burn a hole in the loft insulation that is laid right over the top of them. Pull the insulation back, and we can see it's blackened and the wires under there don't look that healthy either. The main objective has to be making it all safe, but it would be nice to take the opportunity to 'go LED' at the same time if the economics work out (the preference being GU10 LEDs rather than 12v MR16 + new LED drivers).

No fancy units here, they're little more than a decorative ring (held in by sprung clips) within which sits a lamp, connected to nothing but a wire with a simple MR16 connector on it. There is a metal clip that holds the lamp in place - remove that, and the lamp drops down and just dangles there on the end of the wire (along with some dust, maybe a dead spider and some wisps of insulation). So, plan was to get someone to strip the lot out, put in fresh wiring and drop GU10 connectors into the existing lamp holders. Then I could find myself some decent GU10 LEDs and job done.

To summarise the quotes, they went something like this:

:yawn   Mister A: happy to quote based on a description over the phone. Agreed that it should just be a case of replacing wiring and connectors as per the plan above, and I would supply the lamps. Cost: £120 incl parts and labour.

  Mister B: came to look, said he'd change wiring (and get rid of the transformers) and put GU10 lamp holders into the existing fittings. Also advised that because one of the lights is a combined shower fan & light, this should remain low-voltage and so estimate includes supplying new LED driver for that, and also includes the LED lamps for all fittings (x12). Sent estimate of £300, P&L.

:B-   Mister C: came to look, made same point about the shower light unit (stick with 12v but swap transformer for LED driver). But, Mister C also checked the consumer unit and noted that there's no RCD protection to the upstairs lighting circuit, so apparently due to building regs having moved on, he'd be obliged to address that at the same time and provide a certificate for the work. Sent quotation including labour of £210 without lamps provided, or £290 with.

:wacko:   Mister D: came to look, said all the fittings would need replacing because you can't just get standalone GU10 connectors - they come built into a connector block as part of a lighting unit which houses the lamp and includes the decorative surround for the ceiling too. Advised IP65 rated fittings for bath/shower room. Called with quotation of £370 for new fittings and lamps (replaceable), or £400 for different fittings with integrated insulation guards but no lamps included. Includes labour which would apparently involve enlarging the holes in the ceiling.

So, as I say, some quite different outcomes there and it leaves me wondering which on earth to go for, or whether I should just sack off the whole idea, get the plant pots and live with the halogens a bit longer - otherwise it's going to take those LEDs/fittings a good while to pay for themselves.

Some observations:

• Although Mister D had a look at the consumer unit, Mister C was the only one to say it needed MCBs fitting for the upstairs lighting. Is he (a) to be applauded for being correct, and safe, and on the ball with regulations, or (b) misguided (or © trying it on... but I'm guessing not)?
• Mister A didn't even need to come and look. Is that (a) because he quickly assessed it's a simple job and I should rejoice in his cheap quote and get on with it, or (b) a bad sign and I should step away gingerly?
• Mister D advised IP65 fittings for near the shower (definite) and bath (advisable) - suitably or overly cautious?
• Mister B made the point about the shower light remaining low voltage - presumably that's a good idea (maybe the only option... guessing the lamp and fan have separate power but not sure)? That's a very round estimate he sent me there...
• Mister D was the only one to propose insulation guards - the others were fine with my suggestion of using plant pots (not plastic, obviously)
• Mister D reckoned there's no option but to replace all the fittings, but Misters A, B & C seem to suggest otherwise. What's that all about?
• If I do get them done, maybe I should forget the shower one and just leave it as 12v halogen (so no need to fork out for new driver)?

Any thoughts on that little lot?

Thanks...

 

[Murdoch]

How many fittings in total?

 

[Larches]

How many fittings in total?

12 (in hallway/bedroom/bathroom)

 

[Andy™]

C is right about RCD protection. this changed in 2008. A&B should be aware of that.

D is talking BS. you can get GU10 connectors separately. many downlights are identical between 12 / 230v, just a different connector. terminal block is usually the same too, except an extra one for earth on the 230v. some downlights come with both MR16 & GU10

as for bathrooms, if the ceiling is above 2.25mtr you dont need an IP rating, below that you need at least IPx4. personally, i will only fit IPx4 or above, but usually stick with the x4 because the lamp is closer to the glass, giving more light. there is also no requirement for them to be 12v either

if you do decide to replace the fittings, i would go with a GU10 type and fit an LED lamp into it rather than a complete LED fitting, purely because when it does fail its easier to replace a lamp than try and find a new fitting to match

from what you have said, i would go with C

 

[Murdoch]

12 (in hallway/bedroom/bathroom)

Hum, what can I suggest?

Changing accessories only, such as lights does not require, IMHO, any need to review the fuseboard in an other way other to check that said lighting circuit has a cpc.

As for the individuals, mister D is telling porkies about gu10 fittings!

 

[Essex1]

Right.

A - expect to get extra costs if he turns up. You have asked what you want him to do and he has quoted. If he is local he should really have popped by for a look.

B - seems ok. Good value for money.

C - RCD protection probably is required so a good call there. Also mentioned certification with is good. Great value for money there.

D - I like the fact that he is suggesting changing the lights to what I think are fire rated down lights. This is what I would have recommended. Why change all the wiring then to leave the crappy existing down lights up with no fire protection? Again great value for money.

I would say speak with C and ask him about installing fire rated down lights and what the extra costs would be. If it is reasonable go with him.

The quotes are all very competitive. You have no concerns there. If it were me I would say around £450 for wiring, new lights and RCD protection.

 

[Blue Duck]

your looking at around £20 per fitting for materials to swap to gu10 led fire rated.

 

[Larches]

Wow, quick responses, thank you everyone for your comments. Some reassuring points there and good to know the quotes are competitive. A few votes for Mister C too, which I'm quite pleased about because he seemed like a good guy and I just had a better feeling from his visit compared to the other 2.

Essex1, one of the guys (argh, can't remember... C or D I think) said no need for them to be fire rated because it's just loft space rather than rooms above. But I might take your tip and ask C what the price diff would be.

 

[Murdoch]

Re the fire rating and/or hoods I would venture to suggest having fire rated and something to stop the insulation in the loft touching the light is a good idea, especially if the lights are GU10 as 50w halogens could easily be fitted later. That is what I recommend.

Its worth noting most lights state an air gap above fittings.

 

[Essex1]

You are correct in that they do not need to be. Personally I think it would be worth it due to the quality of the fittings over the open top ones which I think are very poor. You have the man there anyway and it will not be any more work. Just materials.

 

[NozSpark]

OK... here goes..

In a single domestic house then you do not need to have fire rated fittings ---- even fire rated fittings need air space around them and should not be covered with insulation

In a bathroom with a ceiling height >225cm you do not have to have IP rated fittings, although IMHO it is advisable as you are not allowed to allow damp air into the loft space

So if the existing fittings are in good condition then you could keep them and replace the lamp holder & lamp for a LED GU10

RCD protection is not required for a job like this although it would be a good idea

However I tend to recommend Click Inceptor fittings which come with a 10 year manufacturers warranty... these are expensive though and will cost ITRO £400 just for the fittings

The cheapest option is to keep the fittings and replace the lamps etc... probably cost ITRO £300 inc parts and fitting....

However I've not seen the job...

 

[Essex1]

Why would RCD protection be a 'good idea' but not required? BS7671 clearly stipulates when and where RCD protection is required and in no place does it say 'RCD protection is not required on a lighting circuit but it is a good idea'.

Does RCD protection make an installation automatically safer by default? Of course not. RCD protection is additional protection not the be all and end all of domestic electrical installation. Chances are some aspects of the lighting circuit will be in a wall less than 50mm from the surface and not in an earthed metallic containment system. So, I would say if the electrician alters the circuit then it would be required to install RCD protection on the lighting circuit.

Far too many electricians just choosing to install RCDs by default instead of actually seeing if they are actually required in my opinion.

 

[Doc Hudson]

You can easily obtain GU10 connectors https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TLGULH.html for a couple of pounds each inc Vat & Delivery costs.  Reasonable LED GU10 lamps can be anywhere from £5.00 to £9.00 for a good light output and beam angle. There may be a need for some better connection boxes behind each lamp if the existing ones are just tape joints as they sometimes are. Metal insulation guards can be purchased  http://www.screwfix.com/p/halolite-downlight-insulation-guard-340mm/84802  So if you take those costs as an example, that could be around £20 - £25 per fitting for the materials. Which may help to put some of the quotes into context.

Doc H. 

 

[Lurch]

Just a note on the insulation thing, you can get fittings that are designed to be surrounded with insulation so to say that insulation should never be laid on fittings is not strictly true. I've also conducted some tests with a Robus RF201 and a Kosnic 5W GU10 LED lamp wrapped in a sheet with thermocouple in the middle with the fitting. Never went above 40 odd.

 

[NozSpark]

Why would RCD protection be a 'good idea' but not required? BS7671 clearly stipulates when and where RCD protection is required and in no place does it say 'RCD protection is not required on a lighting circuit but it is a good idea'.

Does RCD protection make an installation automatically safer by default? Of course not. RCD protection is additional protection not the be all and end all of domestic electrical installation. Chances are some aspects of the lighting circuit will be in a wall less than 50mm from the surface and not in an earthed metallic containment system. So, I would say if the electrician alters the circuit then it would be required to install RCD protection on the lighting circuit.

Far too many electricians just choosing to install RCDs by default instead of actually seeing if they are actually required in my opinion.

Here's why adding RCD protection isn't a requirement

Hopefully we all work to the current BS7671 regulations,, and we also know that from time to time the regulations change. It's important to understand that the regulations are not retrospective and are written for circuit alterations, additions and new installations.

Replacing a light fitting is maintenance,,, nothing more nothing less... and while maintenance work needs to be carried out to a safe standard, it does not need to comply with the current regulations.

Hence RCD protection is not a requirement.

Obviously additional protection by RCD isn't a bad thing?? in the event of a fault it should isolate the supply in <300mS

 

[pewter]

I prefer to fit sealed LED downlights, no lamp, IP rated, that have a 5 year waranty, 800lm outputthat cost around £25 each.

I am sure i see an advert or fitted a unit which claims it is ok to be covered with loft insulation.

 

[Essex1]

Here's why adding RCD protection isn't a requirement

Hopefully we all work to the current BS7671 regulations,, and we also know that from time to time the regulations change. It's important to understand that the regulations are not retrospective and are written for circuit alterations, additions and new installations.

Replacing a light fitting is maintenance,,, nothing more nothing less... and while maintenance work needs to be carried out to a safe standard, it does not need to comply with the current regulations.

Hence RCD protection is not a requirement.

Obviously additional protection by RCD isn't a bad thing?? in the event of a fault it should isolate the supply in <300mS

Reas the op again. He is re-wiring the loft space????

 

[NozSpark]

No,,, as I read it it's still maintenance... It's not a rewire, he's just replacing some damaged cables,,, it might even only end up cutting back some cables from what I read.

If theres much damage to the cables then even the expensive price might be cheap..

I prefer to fit sealed LED downlights, no lamp, IP rated, that have a 5 year waranty, 800lm outputthat cost around £25 each.

I am sure i see an advert or fitted a unit which claims it is ok to be covered with loft insulation.

This is the kind of thing that I tend to fit,, However they cost ITRO £25 ea. to me, so £30 to customers

 

[Essex1]

?????????

Quote - 'the plan is to strip out the lot, put in fresh wiring'.

How can this be read any other way than to, well. Strip out the lot and put in fresh wiring? Of course it is maintenance of some kind as is everything that is not a new circuit isn't it? Definitely requires that circuit to be looked at in regards of bringing up to the current standards and whatever that entails which may or may not be RCD protection depending on what the electrician on the ground sees.

 

[Murdoch]

If the cabling is in the loft it is highly unlikely to need rcd protection.

Just saying