Scammed By Electrician/contractor? Who Pays?

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the way I understand it is this,

as soon as you have A N OTHER tamper / interfere then you have lost all your legal standing [well, most of it anyway] , how can you now prove who actually done the stuff that is non-compliant.,?

 
is the commercial side powered from the domestic or does it have its own electric supply, separate from the house?
At least one part of the installation it is not separate. As I understand it, there are different supplies, and one of them is in both the commercial and the domestic part of the building.

There is NOTHING wrong with choc blocks in the back of a light switch box.  Perfectly normal for "loop at the switch" wiring.

If someone is telling you that's wrong, I would start to question THEIR competence.
I am not an electrician, and I only copied and pasted a few examples taken out of several pages of reports, without actually knowing how relevant they are.

However, three different (Part P certified) electricians have inspected the installation and have come to the conclusion that it does not comply with building regs and that the certificate/EIC are not correct.

So do you have a building control completion certificate or not?
No, we do not have a building control completion certificate.

If you do, then concentrate on getting an EICR (electrical installation condition report) done by someone independent, and then pushing the original contractor to rectify any wiring faults found by the EICR.
We have been pushing the contractor. Pushing HARD.

Also anyone could tighten up connections, but were they actually loose?
Yes, they were. We have videos of sockets being opened and earth cables virtually falling out.
Part of the 30k you paid went to the guy who wrongly signed it off !
   Yes, 75 quid!

Is the installers name the same on the EIC and the Part P cert ?
No, the names are different.

£30k  just on the electrics this must have been one big job did you not have any form of contracts?
Yes, we have. The contract is with the contractor, though, not with the electrician. And the electrics are only one of several problems we have.

 
[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Any one can say the board was poor, easily done, did the “inspector” attach regulation numbers or specifically dangerous issues to the board completion, “untidiness” is not a breach of regulations unless it is dangerous.[/SIZE]
[...]

[SIZE=10pt]It seems from here that things are not what they should be.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]However, there is much more information required to format a full picture and give accurate advice.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The scheme providers MUST be your first port of call.[/SIZE]

I have to admit you lost me with the technical details.  I'm not an electrician. I simply copied and pasted a few lines from several pages of reports. The whole installation is very specialised, it was specifically designed for our building.

One example, though, would be a technical earth that was installed and that was not functioning. Another, less specific, example were light switches, dimmers, that made cracking noises and there was a burning smell. Or whole sockets coming out of the walls (we were told the wrong sockets were used throughout the building - sockets for concrete walls not for timber walls). The list goes on and on ...

And yes, the installation was deemed dangerous!

We called the scheme providers. But all they did was assure us that the electrician who signed the Part P (without working on the installation) would be thrown out of the scheme.

But where does that help us with our problem? That neither gives us a proper and safe installation nor does it reimburse us for the costs we've had.

 
1/ You say the electrician was not a competent person?  Do you mean..

1b) he is not a member of any scheme but he never claimed to be?

If 1b) then that is all perfectly legal...  a DIY person can undertake electrical work legally.

but they should notify the LABC first for them to come out and test & certify the works..

2/  Do you have a formal written contract stipulating a schedule of work to be carried out, and/or including a cost for the work?

If yes and you can prove works have not been carried out then its contact Trading Standards I think!

3/ Did you say this work is over 12 months old now???...

If yes...  why have you waited so long??

5/ Have you put a formal written complaint to the contractor/builder and got a written reply???
Like I said, we hired a contractor for the build who brought his own electrician, plumber etc. He assured us that he would take of all the necessary steps regarding building regulations.

Yes, of course there is a contract. But don't we all know that often a contract isn't worth the paper it is written on (and it is a LOT of paper!)

We have not waited so long. We contacted the contractor immediately after we found the first problems (a few weeks, probably less, after the building was "finished"), and have been in touch with him ever since. However, he has been stalling and deliberately tried to delay and obscure the matter.

As for the technical stuff: See above. Those were only examples. And I am not an electrician and don't understand most of it anyway.

Yes. We sent him several complaints. We spoke many times. He sometimes admits responsibility (not in writing, though), but then seems to forget about it. He also promised, several times (even in writing) that he would come back and fix everything. After a whole year of "reminders", though, it looks like he never intended to come back.

I think you'll now have a problem as "Others" may have "Tampered" or altered the original installation since it was installed,,,, also the delay from installation to now could cause an issue....

However I'm not a legal bod so I could easily be wrong
As for the delay: see above. And the contractor was notified at the time.

Regarding the "tampered": We have photos and even videos of the tests the other electricians carried out. Everything was documented and is on file.

And: We contacted the contractor several times and reported the problems before another electrician touched anything.

 
Do you have a written reply from the contractor stating what his intentions were with respect to your written complaints? I don't think your video opening up some accessories would carry much legal standing as anyone could open up a socket first, undo some screws then close it back up again before doing their own home video. I think the standard principal is that a formal complaint would be submitted direct to the contractor. The contractor should have a reasonable time to address that complaint. If they fail to address your issues you then take it to any trade associations that contractor belongs to and if also applicable trading standards. They would then appoint and independent third party to asses the validity of any complaint. All significant communications need to be in writing or on a recorded telephone calls (I think you have to advise the other party they are being recorded). But as has been pointed out by bringing in your own other electricians you may have left the ground open for the original contractor to deny some responsibility. Your formal contract should be a valid document for trading standards to work with, (I assume both parties are clearly identified on the document and it is signed appropriately), sales of goods act and supply of good and services act. If it is actually dangerous there may be some health and safety issues as well. What do you plan on doing as your next step? Have you paid all the money to the contractor?

Doc H.  

 
Thanks for all your help with this, everybody! We know know which way to go and what to do.

Do you have a written reply from the contractor stating what his intentions were with respect to your written complaints? I don't think your video opening up some accessories would carry much legal standing as anyone could open up a socket first, undo some screws then close it back up again before doing their own home video. I think the standard principal is that a formal complaint would be submitted direct to the contractor. The contractor should have a reasonable time to address that complaint. If they fail to address your issues you then take it to any trade associations that contractor belongs to and if also applicable trading standards. They would then appoint and independent third party to asses the validity of any complaint. All significant communications need to be in writing or on a recorded telephone calls (I think you have to advise the other party they are being recorded). But as has been pointed out by bringing in your own other electricians you may have left the ground open for the original contractor to deny some responsibility. Your formal contract should be a valid document for trading standards to work with, (I assume both parties are clearly identified on the document and it is signed appropriately), sales of goods act and supply of good and services act. If it is actually dangerous there may be some health and safety issues as well. What do you plan on doing as your next step? Have you paid all the money to the contractor?
The contractor promised, several times, also in writing, to make good the defects. He hasn't done so, and a whole year has passed.

I agree that the videos and photos as such might not be enough. But they will certainly carry a lot of weight. That inspection was not just done by an electrician "from next door", but by two electricians at once, with witnesses present. We also have enough proof for other problems with the electrics, and some of them are still there to see and to inspect. We have the test report (from the original electrician) with test results which cannot be from our installation, not only because they show a whole circuit that simply isn't there. The installation does not comply with the detailed specification we had, and therefore some parts of it don't work and could never have worked. That is evident even from the test report! There is the fact that the electrician who signed the test report is not the one who signed the Part P certificate. The person who signed the Part P certificate never worked on our installation (most probably never even carried out a test!). The evidence is pressing, and the videos and photos are only a small part of it. But whoever sees the rest of the evidence will have no doubt that those videos and pictures are real.

And yes, there were indeed some health and safety issues. We have taken care of them, though, and did not leave the installation in a dangerous state. We don't know yet what is hidden in the walls, but we will find out soon.

The contractor's invoices have all been paid, apart from the last ones. We stopped payment when the first (major) defects appeared and the contractor refused to address them. That amount, though, is nothing compared to the defects that we find everywhere in the building - basically, half the building needs to be rebuilt! (That, too, is all documented, and those items were all valued and priced.)

Anyway, we know which way to go now. ELECSA will be notified. Building Control will carry out an inspection tomorrow as well, we will - for the time being - have to bear the costs of all that, but we now know how to make sure that the contractor will have to pay for the losses we incurred because of all this.

 
By the sound of it the only way you will recoup any losses is by legal means no doubt the contractor will go bust before he pays anything though.

 
In case anybody is interested in an update: We notified ELECSA. They have suspended the electrician who signed the part P certificate. They have also informed building control and Trading Standards, and both will investigate the matter and will also look at the electrician who signed the EIC.

We have been told that high fines are likely for both the electrician who signed the Part P Certificate and the one who signed the EIC, because both of them have committed fraud...

 
Thank you for the update. its is always good to hear how problems such as this progress. Do keep us informed of any further developments.

Doc H.

 
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Yes thank you, so often advice is given here but we never get to hear of the outcome.

 
Sadly; none of that helps you though.

I think that, due to having other ( non- electrical) issues from the same contractor, your best bet would be recompense from them; as it is they who your contract was with. It is then up to the contractor to settle his affairs with any trades he chose to bring in. Not your problem.

In your shoes, I`d be going for the guy with whom I had a signed contract. If, as you suggest, there is a well written contract; then the main contractor is quite a way up a piranha-infested river - sans paddle. 

 

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