Surge Protection mandatory Sect 433

Help Support Talk Electrician Forum:

Status
Not open for further replies.

Stoffel

New member
Joined
Jul 12, 2019
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
Good day all,

Just a query re BS7671 18th Ed Amdt 2 and SPD requirements...
As its now compulsory on all installations, why do suppliers still provide consumer units without it?
Is it:
1. Old stock still having to be sold, albeit illegal to install
2. Left up to the discerning electrician to select CUs with SPD irrespective of suppliers actions

It seems an anomaly at best that if items don't meet the requirements, why are they being sold?

Comments please!

Cheers
 
Joined
Apr 27, 2015
Messages
59
Reaction score
16
Location
Preston, Lancashire
It's not compulsory even in brown book.

In a domestic situation if you don't have a safety circuit ie mains powered smoke alarms then if the homeowner doesn't want it you don't have to fit it.

However I for one have just been fitting them as for the cost difference I see it as an extra protective measure.

I think it won't be long before the vast majority of units come with them installed.
 

Sparksfly

Junior Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Messages
45
Reaction score
11
I have had only one electrical issue in the last 15 years that required an SPD....go figure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: UNG

Sensai

Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2020
Messages
24
Reaction score
6
Hi, with AMD2 they've basically narrowed it as the cost of fitting them now is way below the possible cost, in domestic property, of damage to your large screen tv etc (and life obviously)
'Protection against transient overvoltages shall be provided where the consequence caused by over voltage could result in:
i. Serious injury or loss of human life
ii. Significant financial or data loss"'
So not compulsory, which is why board manufacturers won't be adding them as standard yet as it means a higher price for something that may not be used and then they leave that for the installer to factor into their price. Like AFDDs as well, if the board you are fitting doesn't include the circuits that require them it'd be an unnecessary cost at source so again won't be supplied as standard.
 

Stoffel

New member
Joined
Jul 12, 2019
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
Thanks for your comments all.

Gotta larf... I have just sat my annual assessment with a registered persons scheme and this was one of the questions I was asked (no surprises!) It was quite clear that the expected answer was "compulsory" which was how I understood the amendment anyway.

Also worth noting:

1. Amdt 2 (published on 28th March) came into effect immedialtely
2. Safety services are to be included in the protection offered by a SPD, not a reason for the exemption of installing it
3. Home owner deciding whether he wants it?

See below.

"According to Amendment 2, Section 433.3 now has only two conditions, but now becomes mandatory. It states “Protection against transient overvoltages shall be provided where the consequence caused by overvoltage could result in:
  1. i. serious injury or loss of human life
    ii. significant financial or data loss”
Importantly, there is also a Note 3 relating to safety systems. This widens the scope to include electrical safety systems associated with safety services as defined in part 2 of BS7671. It defines safety services as:

“An electrical system for electrical equipment provided to protect or warn persons in the event of a hazard, or essential to their evacuation from a location”

This means that devices like fire alarm systems, emergency lighting, CCTV and PA systems will also need protecting with surge arresters. It also requires the documentation of fire safety designs in buildings such as protected escape routes and locations with risk of fire.
"
 

Sidewinder

The Snake™
Staff member
Administrator
TEF Moderator
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
15,257
Reaction score
293
Location
UK
amd1 is still valid until 27th sept 2022 so you can still continue to use amd1 until then
You can if you must, but because you can doesn't mean you should! 😁
The transition from Amd 1 to Amd 2 has been changed to relate more closely with other standards.
The expectations are that you use the new standard immediately upon publication.
Remember after the 27th of September Smd 1 becomes a withdrawn standard.
This status means it is no longer recognised.
Better to change sooner than later.
 

King Arthur

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 22, 2019
Messages
62
Reaction score
16
I have had only one electrical issue in the last 15 years that required an SPD....go figure.

Are there any standards that such devices need to comply with?

I have a 'surge protected' socket strip fitted in my data cabinet into which my router, LAN switch, NAS boxes and other data 'stuff'are connected. However, I also have a Seaward DR500 Disturbance Recorder plugged into the same socket strip and it regularly records mains transients and +/- 6% voltage surges and drop-outs lasting more than half or two cycles, yet none of these disturbances has ever caused a problem with any of the connected equipment.

I presume this is because any decent manufacturer understands that such disturbances are fairly common and therefore design their equipment to cope with such situations. Most items that are likely to be susceptible to such disturbances will actually operate on low voltage DC and will therefore have a PSU between them and the mains supply and any decent PSU will have been designed with such things in mind anyway. Perhaps not your £5 chinese 'wall wart' PSU but almost certainly your PC's PSU or your flatscreen TV etc.

So, is this just another example of 'scope creep' by the people in charge of writing these regulations?
 

Andy™

©Resident Geordie™
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
29,680
Reaction score
641
Location
S. Tyneside
You can if you must, but because you can doesn't mean you should! 😁
The transition from Amd 1 to Amd 2 has been changed to relate more closely with other standards.
The expectations are that you use the new standard immediately upon publication.
Remember after the 27th of September Smd 1 becomes a withdrawn standard.
This status means it is no longer recognised.
Better to change sooner than later.

still working to amd1... not had time to go through the full book yet

and then there is some jobs that have already been started end of last year that may not be fully complete before sept either
 

Sidewinder

The Snake™
Staff member
Administrator
TEF Moderator
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
15,257
Reaction score
293
Location
UK
still working to amd1... not had time to go through the full book yet

and then there is some jobs that have already been started end of last year that may not be fully complete before sept either
You probably should discuss the changes with the stakeholders for the jobs that are ongoing and see if they want to spend on updating to Amd 2.
Completing to a withdrawn standard is not a good plan and might cause issues with the insurance company for example.
 

Sidewinder

The Snake™
Staff member
Administrator
TEF Moderator
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
15,257
Reaction score
293
Location
UK
Are there any standards that such devices need to comply with?

I have a 'surge protected' socket strip fitted in my data cabinet into which my router, LAN switch, NAS boxes and other data 'stuff'are connected. However, I also have a Seaward DR500 Disturbance Recorder plugged into the same socket strip and it regularly records mains transients and +/- 6% voltage surges and drop-outs lasting more than half or two cycles, yet none of these disturbances has ever caused a problem with any of the connected equipment.

I presume this is because any decent manufacturer understands that such disturbances are fairly common and therefore design their equipment to cope with such situations. Most items that are likely to be susceptible to such disturbances will actually operate on low voltage DC and will therefore have a PSU between them and the mains supply and any decent PSU will have been designed with such things in mind anyway. Perhaps not your £5 chinese 'wall wart' PSU but almost certainly your PC's PSU or your flatscreen TV etc.

So, is this just another example of 'scope creep' by the people in charge of writing these regulations?
Surge protection devices must meet the requirements of the relevant product standards.
A type 3 which is what you have in a socket outlet is not adequate on its own to control voltage surges.
+/-6% is well within the "normal" range, and an SPD only protects against overvoltage, not under voltage, so you will see sags and dips.
 
Joined
Aug 5, 2014
Messages
6,703
Reaction score
545
Location
Woking
You can if you must, but because you can doesn't mean you should! 😁
The transition from Amd 1 to Amd 2 has been changed to relate more closely with other standards.
The expectations are that you use the new standard immediately upon publication.
Remember after the 27th of September Smd 1 becomes a withdrawn standard.
This status means it is no longer recognised.
Better to change sooner than later.

I think for the sake of balance, and for the many sparks who haven't bought AMD2 yet, this is what it says on the subject ...........

AMD 2aa.jpg
 

Bruspark

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2012
Messages
427
Reaction score
58
Location
Herts
If smoke alarms needed surge protection the manufacturers should have designed them in back in 2000 surely rather than wait 20 years then another 10 for SPD's to be retrofitted to even half the properties . .
 

Andy™

©Resident Geordie™
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
29,680
Reaction score
641
Location
S. Tyneside
You probably should discuss the changes with the stakeholders for the jobs that are ongoing and see if they want to spend on updating to Amd 2.
Completing to a withdrawn standard is not a good plan and might cause issues with the insurance company for example.

some areas are already already 2nd fixed and ready for power as soon as DNO get that bit sorted, so no chance of that getting redone. other parts are mostly 1st fixed so could be altered

of course, if regs didnt keep changing every few years, in some cases going back to what was said in a previous version...
 

Sidewinder

The Snake™
Staff member
Administrator
TEF Moderator
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
15,257
Reaction score
293
Location
UK
some areas are already already 2nd fixed and ready for power as soon as DNO get that bit sorted, so no chance of that getting redone. other parts are mostly 1st fixed so could be altered

of course, if regs didnt keep changing every few years, in some cases going back to what was said in a previous version...
The regs are not changing any more often now than they always have.
 

Sidewinder

The Snake™
Staff member
Administrator
TEF Moderator
Joined
May 6, 2010
Messages
15,257
Reaction score
293
Location
UK
I think for the sake of balance, and for the many sparks who haven't bought AMD2 yet, this is what it says on the subject ...........

View attachment 13567
You do really need to read the background information on the changes in standards, the status of withdrawn standards and BS0 to get the full understanding of this.
 
Joined
Aug 5, 2014
Messages
6,703
Reaction score
545
Location
Woking
You do really need to read the background information on the changes in standards, the status of withdrawn standards and BS0 to get the full understanding of this.

And I suggest that about 95% of sparks haven’t got a clue what you are going on about.

The photo above would be my defence of the stuff hit the fan.

I do think that some people really should stop trying to complicate matters.

I only bought AMD out of interest so these suggestions about immediate implementation is just nonsense. A conversation with a sparky mate earlier, who hasn’t bought AMD 2 yet couldn’t believe the suggestion there isn’t transitional period

A CPS member who had their surveillance review in mid March might not buy AMD 2 until Feb ‘23
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top