Twin Mains supply to double socket socket

[Sharpend]

So I am gathering @Speed that you spend fortunes on gathering tools and knowledge yet do not wish to share your sources?

 

[Bruspark]

I suppose it depends if they using the correct manufacturer's crimping tool. I seen a lot of people use the unapproved scissor type tools you get from Car Shops.

You can easily rack up £1k buying 5 or 6 proper manufactures crimping tools.

Possibly, although I’ve never seen a professional electrician using scissor crimps as it only takes a couple of poor crimps to expose their failings .

I buy good quality genuine crimping tools and as I also do coax/RF work you’re right about all the types and sizes and costs adding up alarmingly.

And the cheapest ferrules are definitely rubbish, as I’d love to demonstrate but they went straight in the rubbish without even pausing for a photo

 

[Kama]

Will all please note, the requirements for a ring-main are that it can NEVER be broken. So in fact, before terminating the two ends of a ring into an outlet. Whether it a socket-outlet or a spur unit. The two ends of the ring MUST be twisted together. You MUST NOT just push the two ends into the terminals or as in this case terminate them separately. So if a terminal were to work loose the ring is NOT broken. This is also why the IEE banned Aluminium cable below 16 sq. mm. Since it had a habit of breaking off in terminals and opening the ring. This led to several fires and deaths. Do they not teach how a ring works or how to terminate the cable safety and properly anymore? Once a ring is broken, it becomes VERY dangerous.

Agreeing that a ring main shod never be broken, accident and problems do occur, if it was that dangerous surely ringmaster should be illegal, as should rewritable fuses 3036s, just in case. I have never herd or read or recall that ring main cables should be twisted. And sockets / sours etc should not have separate terminals. MK have just introduced to the market a new push fit twin socket, with 2 or 3 push fits fir each terminal, surely if what has been stated, MK will have to withdraw the accesori, perhaps we should inform them of their mistake !

 

[steptoe]

MK have just introduced to the market a new push fit twin socket, with 2 or 3 push fits fir each terminal, surely if what has been stated, MK will have to withdraw the accesori, perhaps we should inform them of their mistake !

Very common for schuko sockets to have push fit terminals, and has been for a good few years now.
But, the UK lacks behind yet again,
Plus their insistence on using RFCs

 

[Speed]

Very common for schuko sockets to have push fit terminals, and has been for a good few years now.
But, the UK lacks behind yet again,
Plus their insistence on using RFCs

I think you'll find, that because push connections are spring loaded. Unlike screw terminals, they are classed as permanent. As the tension on wire supposedly is maintained. However, how do you then remove wires for testing? Because push connections are only meant to be used once.

 

[steptoe]

I think you'll find, that because push connections are spring loaded. Unlike screw terminals, they are classed as permanent. As the tension on wire supposedly is maintained. However, how do you then remove wires for testing? Because push connections are only meant to be used once.

They usually have a "pin hole" where you insert a probe (or similar) to release the tension that allows the cable to be pulled out.

 

[Speed]

They usually have a "pin hole" where you insert a probe (or similar) to release the tension that allows the cable to be pulled out.

I know that, was wondering if others did. Lol.

However, to answer the question someone asked about which Reg disallows 13A socket outlets in factories. I have the following answer, but it a bit long. I wrote for any morons who don't know how to read the Regs. So I apology in advance to those who do know how to.

This is for all you supposed electricians who have or think it ok to install 13A socket outlets in factories or workshops on a 30/32A ring main.

Since the BS7671:2018 is now a legal document and has been since it achieved BSI status. It is law and contains Appendices to help explain how to comply with some of the more technical requirements.

13A BS1363 socket outlets designed solely for use in offices or domestic. They not allowed for use in factories or workshops by the IEE/IET Regulations. Simply due to restrictions of the size of floor area this type of circuit allowed to serve. That is floor Area measured between one solid wall and another. Not between low partitions, fences, or lines marked on the floor.

The regulation that applies is 433.1.204 and since it somewhat technical for the uninitiated. Appendix 15 of the 18th edition explains how to comply. It states that floor area for a ring-main with BS1363 socket outlets can serve is a maximum of 100 square metres (i.e. 10m x 10m). Also, again if you read the ON-SITE GUIDE for the 18th, Appendix H, page 188. It states both in the first paragraph and the Table H2.1 for final circuits using BS1363 socket-outlets. That the permissible floor area this type of circuit can fed is "100 square metres". That is not a '100 metre square', which measures 100m x 100m.

Socket outlets for use in factories and workshops must be to BS4343 on a radial circuit. See ON-SITE GUILD, Appendix H, H3.1, page 190. As there no restrictions for the number of sockets you allowed or the floor area they can serve. So both the BS4343 sockets and floor area they can feed is unlimited. As long as you calculate the correct wire size to comply with volt-drop and earth-loop readings for the length of run to final outlet. Plus, any grouping factor depending where wires run (i.e. On tray or Ladder, in trunking or conduit, etc).

So all you so-called electricians who think it ok to install 13A socket-outlets in factories or workshops better think again. As you are breaking the law.

I hope I made it clear enough for anyone who doubts what I’m stating. If you still don't understand I suggest you try a different trade, because electricals is not for you.

 

[Sharpend]

I’d question that any laws are being broken?
https://elecsafety.co.uk/is-bs-7671-statutory/https://www.google.co.uk/search?
So whilst you have guidance from the regs it’s is only that?

 

[Speed]

I’d question that any laws are being broken?
https://elecsafety.co.uk/is-bs-7671-statutory/https://www.google.co.uk/search?
So whilst you have guidance from the regs it’s is only that?

If written into a buildings contract, it becomes law. As all electrical work within that building must comply with said Regs. It also how you comply with the 'Electricity at Work Regulations 1989'. The only people who allowed to override the Regs is a charted Electrical Engineer. Is that you?

 

[Sharpend]

Override which Regs? I believe that the Electricity at work regulations are Law
https://www.google.co.uk/search?So must be complied with.
Howeve even this legal act refers to BS8671 as non statutory
https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsr25.pdf

 

[Sharpend]

If written into a buildings contract, it becomes law. As all electrical work within that building must comply with said Regs. It also how you comply with the 'Electricity at Work Regulations 1989'. The only people who allowed to override the Regs is a charted Electrical Engineer. Is that you?

Does that just not conform to contract law?
Therefore contract would be law this meaning that BS7671 should be utilised however BS7671 is non Statutory and providing suitable evidence can be provided to support deviation that does not afford a lesser level of safety then it can be varied?

 

[Fleeting]

I know that, was wondering if others did. Lol.

However, to answer the question someone asked about which Reg disallows 13A socket outlets in factories. I have the following answer, but it a bit long. I wrote for any morons who don't know how to read the Regs. So I apology in advance to those who do know how to.

This is for all you supposed electricians who have or think it ok to install 13A socket outlets in factories or workshops on a 30/32A ring main.

Since the BS7671:2018 is now a legal document and has been since it achieved BSI status. It is law and contains Appendices to help explain how to comply with some of the more technical requirements.

13A BS1363 socket outlets designed solely for use in offices or domestic. They not allowed for use in factories or workshops by the IEE/IET Regulations. Simply due to restrictions of the size of floor area this type of circuit allowed to serve. That is floor Area measured between one solid wall and another. Not between low partitions, fences, or lines marked on the floor.

The regulation that applies is 433.1.204 and since it somewhat technical for the uninitiated. Appendix 15 of the 18th edition explains how to comply. It states that floor area for a ring-main with BS1363 socket outlets can serve is a maximum of 100 square metres (i.e. 10m x 10m). Also, again if you read the ON-SITE GUIDE for the 18th, Appendix H, page 188. It states both in the first paragraph and the Table H2.1 for final circuits using BS1363 socket-outlets. That the permissible floor area this type of circuit can fed is "100 square metres". That is not a '100 metre square', which measures 100m x 100m.

Socket outlets for use in factories and workshops must be to BS4343 on a radial circuit. See ON-SITE GUILD, Appendix H, H3.1, page 190. As there no restrictions for the number of sockets you allowed or the floor area they can serve. So both the BS4343 sockets and floor area they can feed is unlimited. As long as you calculate the correct wire size to comply with volt-drop and earth-loop readings for the length of run to final outlet. Plus, any grouping factor depending where wires run (i.e. On tray or Ladder, in trunking or conduit, etc).

So all you so-called electricians who think it ok to install 13A socket-outlets in factories or workshops better think again. As you are breaking the law.

I hope I made it clear enough for anyone who doubts what I’m stating. If you still don't understand I suggest you try a different trade, because electricals is not for you.

The appendices you refer to are informative and not Regulations. So I ask again for all us morons on here can you actually quote Regulations for any of this, I suspect no because you only have a rudimentary grasp of BS7671.

 

[NozSpark]

I gave up when he said that BS7671 is law

Cracked me up that one did

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Since the BS7671:2018 is now a legal document and has been since it achieved BSI status. .

If you still don't understand I suggest you try a different trade, because electricals is not for you.

Oh dear!!!!!!!!!!

May I politely suggest you read the first five words of BS761:2018 regulation 114.1 (near the bottom of page 16.. pale blue book)..

If you don't have a copy to hand I can quote for you:-

"114.1 The regulations are non-statutory"

Which in easy to understand lay-mans terms for the uneducated means BS761:2018 is NOT LAW.

while some may suggest that you take your own advice and "try a different trade, because electricals is not for you".

I of course couldn't possibly comment!!

 

[NozSpark]

Putting that you must follow BS7671 in a contract only makes it legally binding for that contract,,, it does not make it law…..
As you should know the only laws that we have in the trade are the H&S at work act, the Electricity at work act and the building regulations….. everything else is non-statutory and therefore just guidance

 

[Speed]

I don't care whether you are dyslexic or a monkey's uncle it is not relevant to your initial post because let's be honest, you came on here derating people's methods and as of yet you still haven't stated where it is stated you MUST TWIST CONDUCTORS.

And you have not stated where it says NOT to twist together either. It is all about good workmanship, which clearly you don't seem to appreciate. I been in the trade all my life, and retired as senior electric engineer for an international company. If I didn't know what I was talking about, I would hardly have achieved that position. And I was asked to take up a teaching position teaching electrics. So I think I'm entitled to say I know more than you.

 

[Speed]

Oh dear!!!!!!!!!!

May I politely suggest you read the first five words of BS761:2018 regulation 114.1 (near the bottom of page 16.. pale blue book)..

If you don't have a copy to hand I can quote for you:-

"114.1 The regulations are non-statutory"

Which in easy to understand lay-mans terms for the uneducated means BS761:2018 is NOT LAW.

while some may suggest that you take your own advice and "try a different trade, because electricals is not for you".

I of course couldn't possibly comment!!

You are completely missing the point by focusing on a single notice. Yes it states that, but since it is required that builds must conform to BS. And the Regs are a BS. Then you must obey them. People who nit-pick over one small detail, clearly cannot see the bigger picture. All regulations interlock with each other. It all part of the pyramid that sits under the H&S act. The Regs is how you comply with the H&S act. I been dealing with various regulatory bodies enforcing Regs for an international company for the last twenty years. So I know a thing or two about them.

 

[Speed]

Not being able to spell doesn't make you disabled,
Don't play the victim ,

Not answering my last post about NOT twisting RFCs or RMs is just picking and choosing what you don't understand or can argue about.
Seems you just want to pick flaws for no good reason.

Either back up your claims with well founded, relevant, up to date info, or don't bother putting your ill informed (imho) opinions out there.
Perhaps you need to rethink your methods now we are in the 21st century with different technologies.

Oh dear! You do think a lot of yourself with your tagline. It basically says it all really, you take risks, which is not good for someone whose mistakes can kill and destroy property.

It seems I’m not the only one who dyslexic. If you read my post properly, I stated that it an advantage when electrical fault-finding. I was not looking for or ever have wanted sympathy. However, you must have a sad life. If all you can do is critics someone for being open about a disability. BTW, Dyslexia became a disability under “The Equality Act 2010”. Social Security Administration entered into the ‘Blue Book’ as a legitimate disability in 2017. So please get your facts right before criticising others.

 

[Sharpend]

I’m sorry @Speed but I think this is more about your interpretation rather than hard factual evidence.
The Regs are there as a minimum standard and if you as an engineer can find a no less safe way to install them you can deviate from them therefore they can not be law, as the law is the law and breaking it can bring legal action against you. If you can support your deviation then legally no action must be taken as you have only not followed guidance.
So for the lesser engineers who can’t think outside the box and maintain safety of the design, then it is wise to follow the minimum standard of the Regs, which is probably the majority, however I would expect a senior engineer to be comfortable with the odd deviation without sweating over it?

 

[Fleeting]

And you have not stated where it says NOT to twist together either. It is all about good workmanship, which clearly you don't seem to appreciate. I been in the trade all my life, and retired as senior electric engineer for an international company. If I didn't know what I was talking about, I would hardly have achieved that position. And I was asked to take up a teaching position teaching electrics. So I think I'm entitled to say I know more than you.

The Peter Principle comes to mind.