Wiring Diagram Barn / Workshop

[Andy™]

Thanks for reply , I am not paying anyone to design the installation

so you expect us to all do the design for you for free?

how about you go buy a copy of 7671, read all 400 and odd pages of it, then do the design yourself

and what happens at the end when your circuits do not comply with volt dropZs etc and has to be ripped out and started again? this is all done at design stage

 

[Spanner or Hammer]

Unfortunately, as nobody here has any details of the current (pre-work) characteristics of the supply and the existing installation - it's like working in the dark.

Each and every addition / extension or new installation has to be taken on its own individual merits.

I don't believe anybody on here is being negative, but I do believe that you are possibly not aware of how much work goes into even providing a quotation on a job like this.

I also believe that as others have already said, you would be far better (and possibly cheaper in the long run) to give your quoting electrician(s) a layout drawing, a copy of what you expect (your specification) and let the sparky(s)... as they say "quote you happy".

You'll have their professional opinions in front of you to peruse and compare - then you can ask questions and if necessary tweek your spec' and drawing if and as required.

Just my outlook on it...

 

[Magnet]

Unfortunately, as nobody here has any details of the current (pre-work) characteristics of the supply and the existing installation - it's like working in the dark.

Each and every addition / extension or new installation has to be taken on its own individual merits.

I don't believe anybody on here is being negative, but I do believe that you are possibly not aware of how much work goes into even providing a quotation on a job like this.

I also believe that as others have already said, you would be far better (and possibly cheaper in the long run) to give your quoting electrician(s) a layout drawing, a copy of what you expect (your specification) and let the sparky(s)... as they say "quote you happy".

You'll have their professional opinions in front of you to peruse and compare - then you can ask questions and if necessary tweek your spec' and drawing if and as required.

Just my outlook on it...

Hi , thanks for that , that is what I am wanting to do , the sparky will be walking around the Building with me and the drawing as a guide , I just wanted it to be readable and understand the basic of the drawing , it is not a IEE Engineering drawing  .

 

[Spanner or Hammer]

In that case, as previously mentioned, I'd personally simplify the drawing and at least omit the cable sizes and references to circuit characteristics like radials / rings and mcb sizes.

By all means specify what lighting and how many sockets etc' that you want, but let the electrician do the sums.

It's what we do, it's what we've trained to do.

Having multiple quotes will quickly show up if anybody is over / under quoting, and reading their quote details will give you an indication if they are all singing from the same hymn sheet.

You're still in control of what does and doesn't happen, and you still have the final say.

 

[Lurch]

OP knows more than everyone here.  No point trying to say otherwise, we are all rip-off merchants and don't know what we are talking about.

Not really sure why we need to continue this any further?

 

[Magnet]

There's so many things on that drawing that are a bit WTH but there is no point in expanding on any of them as they would be sorted in 5 minutes by whoever is doing the job so no need to teach you all about the regs etc here. Like why 2 submains and CU's from the main DB? How dod you arrive at 16mm² cables? There is no such thing as 83A. The note about the board not being the DNOs, well yes, obviously. They don't own anyones 3 phase DB, that's not how it works.... etc.....

Just mark where you want sockets etc and leave it at that. Don't try and design the socket locations around what circuit you think you need, like where you have 2 sockets on a wall and you think you need a ring to have more, and you also say that there is a spur at the end but it isn't because it is a radial. All nonsense, just mark the sockets and hand the drawing over.

I do a lot of work for someone that gives me things like this, absolute nightmare, you have to back it up a few steps and work out why he is doing some of the things he is doing then you find out the whole thing is designed around a laymans misunderstanding of some technical point.

You've said in your profile you are time served, hopefully this is not true? The more I look at this the more I think I'd turn the job down.

 1:16mm2 cable , because the feed is from the Main 83A 3phase DB .

2: Yes I am timed served , yes a woman time served , did not say I was a timed served "Electrician " for your info I have a  "HNC Diploma in  Mechanical Engineering  " .

3: The reason I mentioned the Main 83A Breaker was not the DNO's , is because I mentioned about could the 83A fuses be changed to 63A on another forum some had said " you are not allowed to touch the DNO's fuses .

 

[Sidewinder]

Would love to know what standard the 83A fuse you have is made to, because I have in 35 years in the job both electrician & electrical engineer, never, ever seen a standard that specifies an 83A fuse.

Please enlighten us?

 

[Lurch]

1:16mm2 cable , because the feed is from the Main 83A 3phase DB .

2: Yes I am timed served , yes a woman time served , did not say I was a timed served "Electrician " for your info I have a  "HNC Diploma in  Mechanical Engineering  " .

3: The reason I mentioned the Main 83A Breaker was not the DNO's , is because I mentioned about could the 83A fuses be changed to 63A on another forum some had said " you are not allowed to touch the DNO's fuses .

Clearly you have not read the post you quoted.

 

[Sidewinder]

Ok, one other thing being someone who has an HNC, it's not a Diploma, it's a Higher National Certificate.

 

[Andy™]

Ok, one other thing being someone who has an HNC, it's not a Diploma, it's a Higher National Certificate.

:slap

 

[Magnet]

There's so many things on that drawing that are a bit WTH but there is no point in expanding on any of them as they would be sorted in 5 minutes by whoever is doing the job so no need to teach you all about the regs etc here. Like why 2 submains and CU's from the main DB? How dod you arrive at 16mm² cables? There is no such thing as 83A. The note about the board not being the DNOs, well yes, obviously. They don't own anyones 3 phase DB, that's not how it works.... etc.....

Just mark where you want sockets etc and leave it at that. Don't try and design the socket locations around what circuit you think you need, like where you have 2 sockets on a wall and you think you need a ring to have more, and you also say that there is a spur at the end but it isn't because it is a radial. All nonsense, just mark the sockets and hand the drawing over.

I do a lot of work for someone that gives me things like this, absolute nightmare, you have to back it up a few steps and work out why he is doing some of the things he is doing then you find out the whole thing is designed around a laymans misunderstanding of some technical point.

You've said in your profile you are time served, hopefully this is not true? The more I look at this the more I think I'd turn 

 

[Andy™]

MCB size is one factor to be taken into consideration when selecting cable size but not the only one. typical example i have wired many lights in 25mm and sometimes 35mm and thats from a 16a fuse

and a photo of this 83a MCB would be good, never seen one that rating...

 

[Magnet]

I'm thinking like Lurchio & Tony  TBH ,  just mark where the sockets & light switches  go and let the sparks get on with it . 

And like Prodave  , why bother with the sub-main & small board  , just work from the TPN board  that doesn't belong to the DNO. 

None of the DB belong to the DNO , there incoming gear is in another building .

 

[Andy™]

it gets worse... i assume you have taken the volt drop, Ze/ Zs etc from the submain from DNO intake into account too?

 

[kerching]

Well here is my take on it....bearing in mind I would not do a job in this way.

at the end of the job there needs to be a certificate....are you prepared to accept full responsibility for the design section of the Cert and as such sign it?

the spark only signing the installation and test sections

best option....mark,the points you want and let the spark get on with it

just saying

@Sidewinder has only been doing the job 35 years, bit of a newcomer. I have been doing it a tad longer...and I have never seen an 83A fuse either 

just saying

 

[Sharpend]

Brett, for what it's worth I'm currently in a job which has a design team responsible for mechanical and electrical design. I have had hell with them and couldn't grasp why, 13 months later I have found out that none of the design team are electrical bias, purely mechanical and with the best intention they will never understand electrical design which explains the problems that I've had with them. 

You are clearly designing your electrical based upon your mechanical knowledge of design, it will never work until you've had plenty of electrical experience. 

So as the gents on here have guided you, have a base layout of what you want and where and then ask the electricians to design to meet your needs.  

 

[Magnet]

MCB size is one factor to be taken into consideration when selecting cable size but not the only one. typical example i have wired many lights in 25mm and sometimes 35mm and thats from a 16a fuse

and a photo of this 83a MCB would be good, never seen one that rating...

Never  said there was a 83A mcb , it is a 83A pull out porcelain fuse .

Clearly you have not read the post you quoted.

Yes sorry it was meant for Lurch .

 

[leesparkykent]

walk round with your electrician and mark where you want your circuits, discuss how the circuits will be divided up an let the electrician do the rest.......no need for the pointless drawing as its bread and butter work for a competent electrician. What do you think qualifies you better to design an installation than an electrician who does it day in day out? It may come across rude buy your attitude stinks of someone who thinks they knows best so why not  just get on with it and design, install, test and inspect the installation yourself as you could save an unsuspecting electrician a lot of stress and time of working for a customer like you :Salute

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Hello  Beetyboop44 a few members have already asked this question, but so far you have failed to answer it.....

I will just ask it again with a bit more clarification. 

Borrow a copy of BS7671:2008 Amendment 3:2015,

have a look at the electrical installation certificate on page 414 and the boxes requiring signatures regarding the design of this proposed installation.

Who is going to be signing those boxes?

This is a fundamental constructive point that needs to be addressed. Is it you or someone else?

If its you.......

go ahead with your knowledge of BS7671 as per the signature box...

Or leave it to someone else..

As has already been pointed out!

 

[Lurch]

Never  said there was a 83A mcb , it is a 83A pull out porcelain fuse .

Still be nice to see it.

Yes sorry it was meant for Lurch .

???

Your forum using skills are almost as good as your electrical design skills.

Why are you still here? You asked a question, you got an answer that you didn't like (repeatedly, from several experienced electricians) and then have gone into meltdown. There is absolutely no way that you are going to end up with a coherent design at the end of this as you don't want to listen. Your design is wrong/terrible/illegible. I do not need that designing for me, I could do it OTTOMH, as could most here. There may be a few things that we would need to calculate/configure, but random sized cables for no reason and odd submains/boards dotted around for no reason is odd. I asked about them, and then you started telling me I was a clueless moron (paraphrasing). You have not given any sensible information or reasonable explanation as to why this clustercourgette came about in the first place and have made no effort to heed any advice given so far. I can only assume this is the same on all the other forums you have asked this question on.