Considering CCTV - lots of questions

[Geoff1946]

Whilst I have an alarm on my house I've never claimed any insurance discount offered, (they are fairly minimal anyway).   My logic being that they could potentially decline a claim if It wasn't set at the time of an incident.

Same with car insurance back in the day when they were accessories rather than factory fit.

 

[phil d]

I always advise clients not to bother with insurance discounts, they are a potential nightmare, we've all done it with our alarm systems, don't put it on because we're only popping to the shop 2 minutes away, we get there and they've not got what we want so we go into town.Now if we're unlucky enough to be broken in to while we are out that's bad enough, but to then find out your insurance won't pay out would be the end.

I once quoted for an alarm system for a pensioner, he asked if I was NACOSS regd, which I wasn't, he then said that he needed a registered firm to install it as he'd get a discount off his house insurers and showed me some of the quotes he'd had.

I sat down with him and did some calculations, his discount would be sommething like £15 a year, now forgetting the annual increase in premiums it was going to take many many years to recoup the cost of the system. In the end he didn't bother and chose a cheaper sytem from me. Everyone is looking for a get out these days and I don't think that a potential saving of £10 or £20 is worth the risk.

 

[Larches]

Whilst I have an alarm on my house I've never claimed any insurance discount offered, (they are fairly minimal anyway).   My logic being that they could potentially decline a claim if It wasn't set at the time of an incident.

Same with car insurance back in the day when they were accessories rather than factory fit.

An interesting point. I know some people feel the same about dash cams (I mean in the sense that they may or may not want to provide footage to an insurer!).

 

[Doc Hudson]

Not sure if it has been mentioned yet but any movement sensor used to trigger a camera or light can be susceptible to false alarm or nuisance operation. Some people forget to take account of things like warm air extracting from boiler flues that can trigger sensors. Or how many metres range the sensor has to detect movement. I know of properties with just a couple of metres to the pavement then within 4 or 5 metres you have the road itself. So if you install a device which has a sensor with a 12m range, you find it picking up people on the opposite pavement as well. If you have little or no control over the direction or sensitivity of the detector then you need to be more careful selecting your installation positions.

With any type of electrical work, the easiest position to install something, is not always the best position for optimum performance and long term reliability. As with other sectors such a solar, there are some contractors who just get in, fix the kit to to the most convenient position, then get out. Leaving the customer to find all the, could have been done better if, problems later.          

Doc H.

 

[UNG]

With regard to insurance discounts I was asked by a potential customer if I was NACOSS or SSAIB as he wanted me to takeover his maintenance contract and maintain his insurance discount his current maintenance contract was £95 per year plus parts if needed for one visit and his discount on his insurance was £12.50. He was quite embarrassed when I pointed out how much he wasn't saving

 

[Larches]

With regard to insurance discounts I was asked by a potential customer if I was NACOSS or SSAIB as he wanted me to takeover his maintenance contract and maintain his insurance discount his current maintenance contract was £95 per year plus parts if needed for one visit and his discount on his insurance was £12.50. He was quite embarrassed when I pointed out how much he wasn't saving

As it happens, one company just quoted me £85 [*ahem* plus VAT] also known as £102 for annual servicing on the alarm system. Interesting when my parents have just arranged for theirs (similar system) to be done for £50 (and the same guy said he doesn't believe annual CCTV maint is necessary - as we discussed earlier). Then there was the installer I mentioned who said there's no need for annual maintenance on the alarm either - I must confess to having got away with that approach for a good number of years now, and amazingly the backup battery recently held up through an hour or so's power cut despite being 8 yrs old at the very least.

Another company quoted £65 for CCTV maintenance plus another £85 for the alarm (both including VAT), although they tell me the alarm service charge includes a £35/yr fee for the mobile app which would need to be paid separately if I didn't have the service done.

Then there are the mixed views on whether cameras are actually effective at all (e.g. if people wearing hoods/masks and lower cameras can be sprayed or whatever), plenty of anecdotes about them capturing incidents but ultimately not enough to allow perpetrators to be caught. I was talking to someone earlier who said a good alarm system is far more important and I'm considering that too, but whereas some installers seem happy to bolt on the odd new sensor and WiFi capability, others insist every sensor should be replaced (even then there's disagreement on PIR vs door contact vs shock sensor and so on).

Overall - not sure what to think really!

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Then there are the mixed views on whether cameras are actually effective at all (e.g. if people wearing hoods/masks and lower cameras can be sprayed or whatever), plenty of anecdotes about them capturing incidents but ultimately not enough to allow perpetrators to be caught. I was talking to someone earlier who said a good alarm system is far more important and I'm considering that too, but whereas some installers seem happy to bolt on the odd new sensor and WiFi capability, others insist every sensor should be replaced (even then there's disagreement on PIR vs door contact vs shock sensor and so on).

Overall - not sure what to think really!

If someone has seen something you have that they really want.. (e.g. car on the drive)...

not many cameras or alarms will actually deter them.

If a camera is visible and if it is low enough down to get a decent image..

It is also probably low enough down to be whacked with a heavy object to either damage it, or point it in the wrong direction.

Due to all of the easily available digital editing software,

a lot of home CCTV footage will carry little or no weight as evidence in a court of law..

And a lot of domestic CCTV systems are not of sufficient quality to clearly identify an individual beyond any reasonable doubt.

Multiple images from other local properties and/or clearly visible registration numbers can be a bit more useful.

But a single black & white camera image of some youths in hoods trying car doors is damn near impossible to prove identity with.

Further guidance..

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cctv-guidance

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/378449/09-05-UK-Police-Requireme22835.pdf

Guinness      

 

[binky]

I've always been of the opinion that fitting dummy gear does as much as stuff that works - the point being to look more secure than your neighbours, ergo they get burgled not you. 

as said above, buy a set of parts - that way it all works together because it has been designed to! I would opt for Hikvision of you are going to install CCTV, IP version and buy ready made cat 5 cables, as making off cat 5 connectors can be very irritating! Monitor is nice for reviewing footage (only about £100) if you ever need to. Phone apps I have found to be 'hit and miss' but I havn't tried the Hikvision app. Maintenance is money for 'old rope' , there's sod all to service bat battery on alarm systems approx 5 yearly. NIce thing about fitting your own alarm is you can set the engineer codes rather than be held to ransom by an alarm company.

 

[Badger]

I've always been of the opinion that fitting dummy gear does as much as stuff that works Id disagree on that one because when  something goes on even if its within general road view of the camera a dummy cannot show an image but working cameras can help with the information captured and most criminals now a days can spot dummy or fake cctv a mile away therefore not giving a level of protection at all 

as said above, buy a set of parts - that way it all works together because it has been designed to! I would opt for Hikvision of you are going to install CCTV, IP version and buy ready made cat 5 cables, as making off cat 5 connectors can be very irritating! To some point you have a valid point with the cat5 connections but HD coax systems which are still avaible still produce e xcellent images and are in some ways less difficult to install from scratch as less network knowledge is needed for diyers who arnt sure how to setup kit correctly 

Monitor is nice for reviewing footage (only about £100) if you ever need to. This is something that i would say was a must because playing back or setting the system up isnt possible to start with via  phone or tablet device. 

Phone apps I have found to be 'hit and miss' but I havn't tried the Hikvision app. Depends how the system i setup from day 1 if you rely on the qr code setup youll probably struggle but if you setup the system via Port forwarding as the equipment had setup for many years then connection generally is fine.  

Maintenance is money for 'old rope' , there's sod all to service bat battery on alarm systems approx 5 yearly. Maintenance should be carried out once a year not every 5 years because batteries can start to degrade within the cells and when the cells start dying off it creates higher  charge currents from the panel, therefore putting more strain on the charge circuit through the power supply which can create more problems and end up damaging the electronics or transformers so i disagree about servicing is nothing to do, on power supplies the voltage should be checked current levels battery levels, si 

NIce thing about fitting your own alarm is you can set the engineer codes rather than be held to ransom by an alarm company.Not all engineers keep codes secret ill normally write the engineers code down leave with customer and on the papwerwork within their maintance log because each site has a different code used for security and an engineer can never remember every job code. so leaving it inside the panel or in the dcuments folder on site without people knowing what the code numbers meangns of corrosion, making sure the fuses holders are tight against fuses etc.

as above

 

[Larches]

Well, I've seen lots of recommendations for Hikvision kit (and a few scare stories about links to the Chinese government... really not sure they'd be that interested in my driveway or my network for that matter ). But installers all tend to have their own favourites, and a couple of local firms use different brands that I had never heard of. One uses Qvis (UK company, but still made in China) and the other uses Provision-ISR (an Israeli company). Does anyone have experience with these brands?

I'm a bit concerned that the weak link may not be the hardware, but rather software such as the mobile app, which could seriously compromise the whole investment if it has significant usability (or security) issues. Just looking at the reviews for the QV Pro (Qvis) app, it doesn't look pretty!

 

[binky]

. One uses Qvis (UK company, but still made in China)

I've installed QVIS a couple of times, it works well enough but opt for their Viper range, I've had problems with their cheaper gear which suffers from damp issues.

Thier app is slightly annoying, like most apps, to people of a ceratin age like me, but was easy enough to set up.

 

[Badger]

Well, I've seen lots of recommendations for Hikvision kit (and a few scare stories about links to the Chinese government... really not sure they'd be that interested in my driveway or my network for that matter ). But installers all tend to have their own favourites, and a couple of local firms use different brands that I had never heard of. One uses Qvis (UK company, but still made in China) and the other uses Provision-ISR (an Israeli company). Does anyone have experience with these brands?

I'm a bit concerned that the weak link may not be the hardware, but rather software such as the mobile app, which could seriously compromise the whole investment if it has significant usability (or security) issues. Just looking at the reviews for the QV Pro (Qvis) app, it doesn't look pretty!

The key with any cctv equipment installation in the Internet is secure passwords change the internal ip. Address change all the port numbers and don't use their hik connect service as its not brilliant better to port forward it properly through the router and go via a ddns service using a ddns name setup ie test.ddns.net for example

Locked to prevent hi-jacking (Again)