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johnb2713

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Whilst I am retired, we still have a family run I.T. business. A year ago we purchased some retail shop premises for the business to move into and residential flats developed upstairs. The shop is essentially long and thin, 8 metres wide x 22 metres deep with warehousing going a further 35 metres back, the incoming supply (3 phase) is at the back in the warehouse.
We replaced the 45 fluorescent lights in the shop with LED panels in the suspended ceiling, the LED panels had separate drivers, double insulated etc. The circuits were wired into groups of 3 rows with around 15 panels on each row.
In the workshop which is to the rear of the shop, trackpads on computers sometimes played up, the mouse pointer was quite jittery nut only when the laptop was plugged into the mains, not necessarily switched on but plugged in. I took my ocilloscope down to see what was going on to find the mains voltage was fine 238v, the AC waveform looked fine even though we have inverter driven heat pumps running.
I connected the probe to a biscuit tin lid on the bench and found 2KHz @ 20v noise superimposed on a 50Hz sinewave. I was surprised to see this level of airborne noise. Switching the middle row of shop lighting off reduced the noise dramatically and trackpads worked fine, much to the amazement of all observers.
I earthed the ceiling (the ceiling is continuous throughout the shop and workshop area) grid to the mains earth, this reduced the noise allowing the trackpads to work.
So my question (there at last), what is the normal good practice with regard to suspended ceilings and earthing of the metal rails?
 
Sounds like the usual carp light drivers with a CE mark but which if ever tested, would no doubt fail the EMC requrements.

I get the impression good design and testing has gone, in favour of just put a sticker on it, nobody will know.
 
The original fittings would have earthed the grid, maybe not effectively by way of being in contact with it LED panels do not do this. Back in the 80s people wasted hours earthing these grids for no reason other than any metal part back then had a green/yellow conductor connected to it.
 
In theory no one runs cables loose over the suspended ceiling, so it doesn't need earthing. However, there's no harm taking an earth bond to aconvienent point picking up a cpc from one of the circuits.

I changed my garage roof to metal and was getting quite notable belts from voltage in the roof induced by my solar panels. Simple earth bond stopped all that!
 
Problem with a ceiling grid it is not a single piece of metal there could be hundreds of parts albeit they are connected together casually but not mechanically.
 
I get the impression good design and testing has gone, in favour of just put a sticker on it, nobody will know.
That possibility doesn't surprise me.
The whole EMC subject is deeply technical for even qualified electronics engineers to grasp. Even working out which standards apply to equipment and circumstances is complicated and the standards documents themselves are expensive to buy.
Proving non-compliance of either emission or susceptibility performance is virtually impossible without expensive laboratory based test facilities.
The outcome of all this is that any supplier simply disregarding compliance is extremely unlikely to be held to account, doubly so when manufacture is overseas and all that the importer can do is ask for compliance test reports.
Has anyone actually been prosecuted for falsified compliance declarations or CE marking?
 
That possibility doesn't surprise me.
The whole EMC subject is deeply technical for even qualified electronics engineers to grasp. Even working out which standards apply to equipment and circumstances is complicated and the standards documents themselves are expensive to buy.
Proving non-compliance of either emission or susceptibility performance is virtually impossible without expensive laboratory based test facilities.
The outcome of all this is that any supplier simply disregarding compliance is extremely unlikely to be held to account, doubly so when manufacture is overseas and all that the importer can do is ask for compliance test reports.
Agreed

Has anyone actually been prosecuted for falsified compliance declarations or CE marking?
Doubtful
 
Sounds like the usual carp light drivers with a CE mark but which if ever tested, would no doubt fail the EMC requrements.

I get the impression good design and testing has gone, in favour of just put a sticker on it, nobody will know.
I suppose were all guilty of buying on price rather than quality to a degree. There were units at 4 x the price of these.
 
Problem with a ceiling grid it is not a single piece of metal there could be hundreds of parts albeit they are connected together casually but not mechanically.
This ceiling grid clips together as many do but has an additional really strong sprung metal latch that locks the parts together, I'm fairly confident it will make a decent electrical connection.
 
Ahhhh I remember the days ......
( hovis advert music starts )

Back in my apprentice days bonding each main run on suspended ceilings in many an office and warehouse.

Had to be continuous so no breaks. Ripping the cheap metalwork apart on the grids when the drill snagged.

All because the regs had gone mad !
 
Ive seen similar a colleague went to look at a small shop installation because the alarm engineer had been getting false activations and the panel was reporting some kind of noise figure (not sure quite what, this was what he told me, but it was a proper commericial galaxy panel - so I guess it has things on it that you'd not see on the domestic kit) and they thought the issue started when new lighting went in. Applying an earth to the grid I think reduced teh figure (though not down to zero) and seemed to stop the issue. Though I think I did make the comment that if the alarm installer had not lashed the cables across the grid then there there would have likely not been an issue to start with..
 
Ive seen similar a colleague went to look at a small shop installation because the alarm engineer had been getting false activations and the panel was reporting some kind of noise figure (not sure quite what, this was what he told me, but it was a proper commericial galaxy panel - so I guess it has things on it that you'd not see on the domestic kit) and they thought the issue started when new lighting went in. Applying an earth to the grid I think reduced teh figure (though not down to zero) and seemed to stop the issue. Though I think I did make the comment that if the alarm installer had not lashed the cables across the grid then there there would have likely not been an issue to start with..
On ours there was quite a reduction in voltage and I suspect at different frequencies it had a different effect, one thing for sure it stopped the issue completely.
 
Just asking!
If the lights were on different phases would this affect the frequency and possibly amplify the emc?
 
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