A tricky one? RCD or not?

[pluto]

After sorting the major job for my Elecsa assessment my neighbour has asked if I can fit a additional socket to his garage. Good timing!! But... here`s the dilemna:

We all do our work to the best of our abilities and compliant to the current Regs but been assessed by a scheme provider is obviously a time where every t is crossed and i dotted!!

My neighbour has in the kitchen, not one old Wylex board but three and it looks like many ways are supplying just one socket outlet each?? I think there are two 8-way and one 6-way. I know this is not directly relevant to the garage socket but trying to build a picture .

From one of these 8-way boards a 30A fused way supplies (via 6mm T&E) a 2-way wylex board in the garage with:

30A fuse that covers the garage ring (just 3 socket outlets)

6A fuse that covers the lighting for the garage.

My intention is to spur off a socket in the garage and fit a metal-clad double socket outlet on the opposite wall. The cable will be clipped-direct up the wall, along the ceiling and down the other wall.

My query is this: I have worked on/altered the circuit so should be RCD protecting. However, because the cable is surface mounted, RCD protection is not required.

But it`s a garage.....socket outlets.....garden power tools. Ok, but when I fit a garage enclosure and the lights and sockets become RCD protected I have effectively worked on the supply to that distribution circuit and should therefore be RCD protecting from the kitchen CU also. RCBO for the old Wylex board?? Surely not.

Have I missed something obvious here?? (Yet to check the bonding) All comments definately welcome

Constructively critical or otherwise Blushing

thanks in advance, Craig

 

[Apache]

Erm you can't

fit a metal-clad double socket outlet on the opposite wall

outside - you need a suitable socket with IP rating.Do you think some kind of isolator inside the garage (swtiched fued spur?) for isolation inside so the local pikeys don't steal all the electricity.

AFAIK (and I'm not a spark) if there is a reasonable likelyhood of a socket been used to supply outside equipment it must be RCD protected however the cable is run. I would go further and say it's good practice - lawnmowers and hedgetrimmers cutting cables and pressure washers - all greater than the average risk!

Sounds a bit of a complicated job and maybe not one for your assessment?

Maybe a compromise would be to fit a RCD IP rated outside socket with the cabling surface run? And leave a price to upgrade CU?

 

[NozSpark]

Firstly you are only interested in the supply in that it should be safe and capable of supplying any extra load you add. You also need to make sure that your main and protective bonding is ok. The sub main does not need a rcd, but be careful of exporting pme.

While the cable supplying you socket does not need rcd the socket its self does.

 

[sirsparkabit]

Hi Pluto,

If you already have a major job sorted for your assessment then that should be enough for your assessor to check your abilities ,testing ect.

As to your mates garage,you do not have to change the existing boards just to achieve your goal (regs not retrospective) however if i was going to fit another socket in the garage i would either fit a rcd fused spur going to your new socket

or fit a garage unit with rcd main switch to replace the wylex one and thus provide rcd protection to the lights and all sockets in the garage (existing wiring inspected and tested first.

Installation then being safer than when you found it.

Know doubt the learned members on this forum will give you more options and advice more comprehensive than mine.

This is just as i interpreted your post and i hope it is of some use .

Good luck with your assessment SSAB.

 

[a1]

I believe he meant the opposite wall on the interior of the garage, Patch.

OP - You can either use this, or put this near to the CU and have as many so's as she wants.

Naturally, a pvc pattress would be needed as there are no metal clad ones on there.

 

[sirsparkabit]

I believe he meant the opposite wall on the interior of the garage, Patch.OP - You can either use this, or put this near to the CU and have as many so's as she wants.

Naturally, a pvc pattress would be needed as there are no metal clad ones on there.

:S:S:S sorry Admin could'nt resist

 

[pluto]

Thanks for the replies. They were really helpful. Yes, I did mean that it will be going on the INTERIOR opposite wall. Those RCD units are a good idea but to be fair, at the wholesalers yesterday he can do me a garage enclosure with RCD and 2 breakers for

 

[Badger]

who believes that rcd protection should be lighting internally in a house/kitchen etc

and also that as contractors we should be responsible for the existing parts of the house on changing a fuse board.

 

[betty swollocks]

in an ideal world i would fit the new cu with rcd covering all circuits in the garage and use trunking for the cable feeding the new socket. A much more professional looking job for your assessor

but every job has a value and i can see the point of keeping cost down as its your neighbour

easiest and cheapest would be to use an rcd socket but i think you have chosen the correct route in changing the cu, making the whole garage safer

 

[binky]

With regard to exporting the PME I was hoping to utilize the CPC from the 6mm T&E but is this right?

According to the latest Connections magazine this is OK provided that there is nothing that needs main bonding in the garage such as a water pipe. In which case a main bond needs to be provided back to main earth in house.

 

[sparkyt]

who believes that rcd protection should be lighting internally in a house/kitchen etcand also that as contractors we should be responsible for the existing parts of the house on changing a fuse board.

the first bit- doesnt quite make sense but from what i can make of it then practicaly every circuit in a domestic enviroment now requires 30ma rcd protection(see new 17th regs). as for the 2nd bit- you are required to test all existing circuits before connecting into new board and report on their condition ie. a dometic PIR and then a EIC for the board change clearly stateing that this covers the board change only.also all bonding requirements should be addressed. as far as the existing installation is concerend you can only report on the existing condition of it and put it to the client. on all board changes i tell the cleint that a PIR is required before the change so that any potential issues with rcds tripping etc can be addressed before the board is changed.this way you do not get called out a week later to find that existing circuits (not installed by yourself) are causing problems with your new board.

 

[batty]

When changing a fuse box to a consumer unit you are obliged to check the circuits have an adequate earth fault loop to trip the Mcb's as you have changed the tripping currents. It is a good idea to do insulation resistance as if you have neutral to earth faults you are going to get called back. I do not think you have to do a full pir on consumer unit changes.

Batty

 

[pluto]

Cheers Batty, will do. I put the circuit in yesterday with the metal-clad double S/O but haven`t connected to the power yet. Going back in a couple of days to do the enclosure and finish off.

Incidentally, I checked the incoming power set up last night and it`s on a TN-S but my house next door is on a TN-C-S. Is this normal for neighbouring homes to be on different supply types? My house is 1934 and my neighbours is probably about 10 years after.

ps now that i`m changing the garage enclosure, I presume it`s notifiable and a minor works will not suffice?

Thanks in advance.

 

[sparky1967]

Hi all - just to throw a spanner in the works - for any sub main, do the regs not require that the main earth be the same c.s.a as the phase conductors ? - i.e, if using 16mm t&e to supply a C.U because the c.p.c is 10mm, you would run a separate 16mm earth !!. In this case a garage sub main is 6mm t&e with 4 mm earth, surely a separate 6mm earth would have to be run to main MET to comply.

 

[kme]

Pluto:

I was hopoing for info on the earthing system

As you`re feeding more than one final circuit, EIC is the necessary.

Plus, of course, building reg notification.

Sparkyt:

Why do a PIR? It`s instantly obsolete, as soon as you lift a screwdriver. Unnecessary excess cost to your customer, AFAIAC. Test by all means, as batyy says, but not issue a PIR. Waste of time & money, mate.

Sparky `67:

Do you have a reg no. please?

KME

 

[sparkyt]

Pluto:I was hopoing for info on the earthing system

As you`re feeding more than one final circuit, EIC is the necessary.

Plus, of course, building reg notification.

Sparkyt:

Why do a PIR? It`s instantly obsolete, as soon as you lift a screwdriver. Unnecessary excess cost to your customer, AFAIAC. Test by all means, as batyy says, but not issue a PIR. Waste of time & money, mate.

Sparky `67:

Do you have a reg no. please?

KME

sorry should have explained in more detail.

the reason fo my rant being the following:

1st reason:

called to a dom property where the client had had a c/u upgrade in nov 08.

16th style board fitted so only half of the board rcd'd. no pir or eic issued. the installation was riddled with faults which resulted in nuisance tripping of rcd. the original spark didnt carry out pir /test existing circuits to verify the condition of the exixting installation but still chucked a board up and charged the old dear 450 quid! when the client asked the spark to return and correct the problem he repplied with " i cant be held responsible for any existing faults" - well no maybe not, but if he had gone down the proper route of testing existing wiring prior to the change then he would have picked them up, notified the client and then no doubt been given the job to trace and repair them. so now after me fixing the faults and issuing pir she is another 200 quid outta pocket and still has a board which doesnt fully comply with current standards be it only a code 4 observation. he was a NICEIC dom inst

2nd reason:

called out to a domestic property. recent kitchen extension and bathroom addition. wire, cu upgrade, bonding etc by another NICEIC contrator.

prior to the works there was no pir or any testing carried out to verify the condition of any existing circuits that were to be re-connected to new c/u.

all work designed, quoted and carried out after july 08

board was a 16th style 5+5 split (again). new circuits connected into this and only one protected by rcd side, leaving other new circuits with no rcd protection(both fell within the scope of bs7671 17th ed and so did require protection)

no mention of existing circuits on the EIC.just the four new circuits were listed as 1-4 and did not relate to the layout of the board which now contaied 9 .they had noted on the cert in the details of departures "was designed before the 16th edition" !!!???

tails from meter lashed around pipes and around other cable through the garage to the "new" c/u- approx 6m with no protection at origin

all sockets/switches poorly terminated, copper expossed and a break in the ring. connections at switches arcing.

cooker point with skt rammed into a 25mm box - cables dammaged

new cable sheathed diagoanaly across the kitchen wall!!

all fire rated downlights cut in with incorrect holesaw-not one of them fits correctly therefore fire rated ceiling is no longer fire rated

all sockets different hight from worktops - result 5mm-45mm difference.

i didnt stick about to see much more. i was shocked, disgusted and most of all felt awfull having to explain to the customer, the defects to his "new" kitchen.

2nd one more of a rant at the pretend electricians

so back to my point- for what it costs to eliminate any faults at the first stage its gotta be worth it. what i tend to do in these instances is do a full pir as it were, and explain the findings to the client along with a cost to put right. if they dont want to pay for the repairs then i issue the PIR with the findings and list as "unsatisfactory" and they pay for that. if they agree then i find and repair the problems, upgrade the board and test any changes i have made. EIC is then issued for the board upgrade and notes of any repairs/changes noted. job done- customer happy, job now complys and is fault free, i get paid and then reccomended- happy days.

spoke to niceic area engineer on last visit and he couldnt agree more.

sorry to moan, any more suggetions and opinions much appreciated

 

[Badger]

where was this above jobs ??

 

[sparkyt]

where was this above jobs ??

1st derbyshire

2nd staffs

 

[DonkeyDong]

Report them to the NICEIC and the local authority!!

D.

 

[sparkyt]

Report them to the NICEIC and the local authority!!D.

I will be, on my list of things to do this week