Breakers
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Not allowed under BS 7671 any more.
There is already a list of those on here somewhere RB . Do a search . KME did if I remember correctly & we all contributed.
Oh yes I'd forgotten that . Got to be the same make as the board now , thanks Sidey.
Oh yes I'd forgotten that . Got to be the same make as the board now , thanks Sidey.
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Crabtree star breaker fits nothing 
I must say I find this thing with not fitting another brand of MCB a restrictive practice . If its the same dimensions and is the same BS 60898 say , why would cause a problem .
I said on here once that I had made up a Garage unit with something like a 4 way enclosure from Control Gear, a Hager RCD , a 6A MK and a 16A Crabtree MCB .
The general consensus was that I should've bought one made up by a manufacturer.
As I have said before , we must have more rules and regulations piled upon us than any other trade.
Pretend example :-
You are fitting a socket 2 ft below a board.
1. You can't remove the cover until its dead.
2. You should fill out a risk assessment .
3. You have an MCB that fits but its a different make , same BS, identical shape.
4. There are cables with old colours in there so when you drive off to get MCB of same make you must also buy a label to warn of different colours.
5. Oooops theres no main bonding ..you are obliged to get the customer to pay you to install them.
6. You must test the socket and fill in a certificate .
7. The wholesaler doesn't stock the make of MCB required and can't order one as they don't deal with that company.
8. So you phone round and find a wholesaler who does , but they don't have a 16A or even a 20A so you order one .
9. They phone back a week later to say the maker has redesigned the breakers and the new design doesn't fit that board.
10. So you tell the customer they need a board change .
11. The customer decides you are taking the Part Pee and tells you to sod off.
12. Gets his neighbour who is a Fireman and knows everything to fit the breaker that you stupidly left on top of the board , pays him £40 and brands you as rip-off merchant .
I said on here once that I had made up a Garage unit with something like a 4 way enclosure from Control Gear, a Hager RCD , a 6A MK and a 16A Crabtree MCB .
The general consensus was that I should've bought one made up by a manufacturer.
As I have said before , we must have more rules and regulations piled upon us than any other trade.
Pretend example :-
You are fitting a socket 2 ft below a board.
1. You can't remove the cover until its dead.
2. You should fill out a risk assessment .
3. You have an MCB that fits but its a different make , same BS, identical shape.
4. There are cables with old colours in there so when you drive off to get MCB of same make you must also buy a label to warn of different colours.
5. Oooops theres no main bonding ..you are obliged to get the customer to pay you to install them.
6. You must test the socket and fill in a certificate .
7. The wholesaler doesn't stock the make of MCB required and can't order one as they don't deal with that company.
8. So you phone round and find a wholesaler who does , but they don't have a 16A or even a 20A so you order one .
9. They phone back a week later to say the maker has redesigned the breakers and the new design doesn't fit that board.
10. So you tell the customer they need a board change .
11. The customer decides you are taking the Part Pee and tells you to sod off.
12. Gets his neighbour who is a Fireman and knows everything to fit the breaker that you stupidly left on top of the board , pays him £40 and brands you as rip-off merchant .
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you see Deke,
thats why you are not a proper electrician,
if you had went to college for 5 weeks you would know that not only is it a folly to use you own brain,
its also foolish to think outside the box and actually do something thats not in the big green instruction book.
thats why you are not a proper electrician,
if you had went to college for 5 weeks you would know that not only is it a folly to use you own brain,
its also foolish to think outside the box and actually do something thats not in the big green instruction book.
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A while back there was 'apparently and allegedly I believe....all,legal avenues duly covered'. An issue withnWylex breakers that were incompatible with Wylex boards.
.......just saying
.......just saying
Your old enough and wise enough to know whats good or bad, mix and match my not be right this year, it was ok a few years back, next they will be saying all electricians must wear glasses, so you need to go and buy some.
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Well if I fitted a Hager MCB into a Crabtree board its probably a lot safer than their exploding ones .......just saying !!
Wylex instructions state BS numbers that can be used in there boards, not manufacturers
So thats where I went wrong , Steppers , wasting those 6 years (school leaving age 15) as an apprentice , on carp money, making the tea , climbing ladders, drilling walls , working in the freezing cold when all I had to do was a course 5 week course!!!!
Hang on !! Hang on!!! Oooooh sheet ...... nothings changed .... there I am today in the freezing cold, on carp money, making the tea, renovating a 200yr old old cottage .................what went wrong ??
Discuss.
I appreciate your post Slippery but where does it say "other manufacturers"Wylex instructions state BS numbers that can be used in there boards, not manufacturers
Wylex instructions.jpg
I think that list is just the BS numbers for their components TBH.
Ok, it lists BS numbers of components it has been tested for and can be fitted, It does not say dont fit other makes etc
Thats an older pamphlet M8, I assume its the new ones that are insisting on same make , or is it a reg as Slidey says .....BS 7671 ?
Its a PITA i know that.
Its a PITA i know that.
I had one the other week that only stated "tested for use with "..... BS this, that and something else.. nowhere did it say to only use their MCBs
Anyone got the full heads up on the question of fitting a rogue MCB ?
All I heard was if a problem occurred with a consumer unit , the maker would deny all responsibility if there was a rogue breaker in there.
All I heard was if a problem occurred with a consumer unit , the maker would deny all responsibility if there was a rogue breaker in there.
Sharpend
"It Just Is"
Personally I think it's scare mongering by the manufacturers. The Bs standards are there for a reason all MCB's have to be tested to it therefore all should be intrinsically safe. Is it not the same as for example car manufacturers that say genuine ford parts for your mondeo, vauxhall parts for vauxhall, etc, however there is one hell of a market out there for alternative parts that are to same standards? And yes there are some parts that fit exactly the same within different makes. But do we all insist on manufacturers parts?
If the dimensions are compatible and it is no less safe then what's all the fuss about?
Just asking!
If the dimensions are compatible and it is no less safe then what's all the fuss about?
Just asking!
I disagree with the situation, but it is what it is.
The reg in BS7671 is the one that says you must take into account manufacturers instructions.
The reason that they say you cannot use alternative breakers is that their DB's are |"Type Tested Assemblies" or "Partially Type Tested Assemblies".
Thus to meet the requirements of the LVD, they have to be tested as an assembly.
Thus they are only prepared to do this with their own product.
Even though there is a standard for breakers, it is sufficiently open, not only to have dimensional differences, but also, detail differences in performance & operation.
One guy I spoke to high up at Schneider, related some test results to me where by there was a significant affect in discinnection time on an RCD when they ran a simulation test. A 40A load through the adjacent MCB to the RCD varied the disconnection time of the RCD considerably. This was not the case with the load located a few ways down the board.
Remember, "they" are guaranteeing the board meets requirements, not you.
The same with pattern car parts, the manufacturer is guaranteeing compliance not the garage fitting it.
However, in this scenario, remember the manufacturers will try to lump it on you rather than take it on themselves.
So there is a slight difference.
You will find somewhere in all manufacturers data, and if not then, if they are a member of BEAMA, then BEAMA have issued on their behalf a statement saying basically you can't mix breakers & boards.
If you decide to then ensure that you have suitable indemnity, not liability insurance to defend you in the event of an issue.
BEAMA Technical bulletin here:
http://www.beama.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/F24BF81E-39AC-41C6-9557E79834520533
I don't like it either!
The reg in BS7671 is the one that says you must take into account manufacturers instructions.
The reason that they say you cannot use alternative breakers is that their DB's are |"Type Tested Assemblies" or "Partially Type Tested Assemblies".
Thus to meet the requirements of the LVD, they have to be tested as an assembly.
Thus they are only prepared to do this with their own product.
Even though there is a standard for breakers, it is sufficiently open, not only to have dimensional differences, but also, detail differences in performance & operation.
One guy I spoke to high up at Schneider, related some test results to me where by there was a significant affect in discinnection time on an RCD when they ran a simulation test. A 40A load through the adjacent MCB to the RCD varied the disconnection time of the RCD considerably. This was not the case with the load located a few ways down the board.
Remember, "they" are guaranteeing the board meets requirements, not you.
The same with pattern car parts, the manufacturer is guaranteeing compliance not the garage fitting it.
However, in this scenario, remember the manufacturers will try to lump it on you rather than take it on themselves.
So there is a slight difference.
You will find somewhere in all manufacturers data, and if not then, if they are a member of BEAMA, then BEAMA have issued on their behalf a statement saying basically you can't mix breakers & boards.
If you decide to then ensure that you have suitable indemnity, not liability insurance to defend you in the event of an issue.
BEAMA Technical bulletin here:
http://www.beama.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/F24BF81E-39AC-41C6-9557E79834520533
I don't like it either!
Sharpend
"It Just Is"
Fair cop Sidey.
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I just rely on good old common sense (are we allowed to have that any more)
If the breaker fits PROPERLY I will use it, regardless of what manufacturer has put their name on it.
The important things are it must the the same size and the busbar entry must be the same height. The height of the output terminal does not matter.
In spite of all being a "standard" size they are not. In particular, the distance from the bottom of the din rail to the bottom edge of the breaker varies a bit from one make to another. Get that wrong and you will end up with exposed busbar and busbar probably not far enough into the terminal.
the other thing to watch for, is two different makes may appear to have the same entry height, but on one the cage clamp tightens upwards, on the other, it tightens downwards. So when you clamp a relatively small item like a busbar finger, the height when the terminal is tightened can be different, even if they look the same before you tighten them.
so providing you use common sense and make sure they fit, I don't see a problem. I guess the current trendy rules are to cover the people that have no common sense and will slap any old breaker in, even if it sits at a wonky angle with exposed busbar.
And yes I hate it when manufacturers keep changing their design of breakers. I've even had the stupid situation where I bought a fully loaded kit board, and at the same time bought 2 extra breakers of the same make (because the standard mix on the kit board was not right) only to find the individual breakers although the same make, are a different design, and the switch dollies are not even at the same height. I "solved" that one by putting the "wrong" make of breaker in that were a perfect fit and even the switch dollies matched.
If the breaker fits PROPERLY I will use it, regardless of what manufacturer has put their name on it.
The important things are it must the the same size and the busbar entry must be the same height. The height of the output terminal does not matter.
In spite of all being a "standard" size they are not. In particular, the distance from the bottom of the din rail to the bottom edge of the breaker varies a bit from one make to another. Get that wrong and you will end up with exposed busbar and busbar probably not far enough into the terminal.
the other thing to watch for, is two different makes may appear to have the same entry height, but on one the cage clamp tightens upwards, on the other, it tightens downwards. So when you clamp a relatively small item like a busbar finger, the height when the terminal is tightened can be different, even if they look the same before you tighten them.
so providing you use common sense and make sure they fit, I don't see a problem. I guess the current trendy rules are to cover the people that have no common sense and will slap any old breaker in, even if it sits at a wonky angle with exposed busbar.
And yes I hate it when manufacturers keep changing their design of breakers. I've even had the stupid situation where I bought a fully loaded kit board, and at the same time bought 2 extra breakers of the same make (because the standard mix on the kit board was not right) only to find the individual breakers although the same make, are a different design, and the switch dollies are not even at the same height. I "solved" that one by putting the "wrong" make of breaker in that were a perfect fit and even the switch dollies matched.
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