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Jacko29
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Got a great deal on a CB200 new, just wondering what NICEIC say about how often your checker needs checking??
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Probably yearly.
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I have never been asked about my check box.....
I have a CB100 & a CalCard..
I think they are more concerned that you have a program of regular cross refence checks.
AND if there was a discrepancy it would imply either the meter or box has drifted....
(unlikely to both drift in same direction over same timescale!)
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Twas said that the Calcard has been approved by ELECSA so inly 3 yearly calibration required
AFAIAC:
I only use my calcard - and once a year I test someone else`s meter the same way I test mine - effectively having 3 points of reference
Therefore, until & unless one of these has a disparity to the others, I won`t have it checked because, obviously, it is still accurate.............
KME
I only use my calcard - and once a year I test someone else`s meter the same way I test mine - effectively having 3 points of reference
Therefore, until & unless one of these has a disparity to the others, I won`t have it checked because, obviously, it is still accurate.............
KME
RussellR
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We use the CB200, and our NICEIC Inspector takes the view that if the results from the box and meter are close then both must be in calibration, at the point they start to deviate calabrate them both. Unless the box can be confirmed on another calibrated meter in which case just have the meter that is deviating calibrated.
Good grief, you mean that a checkbox needs calibrating. So I need a checkbox to calibrate my meters then a checkbox to check the checkbox?
Can checkboxes be used to check PAT testers?
Can checkboxes be used to check PAT testers?
Yes if you get the Seaward version.
There is a LOT of debate on this subject, and there are various parameters that the basic checks we do cannot undertake, even with the advanced checkboxes.
IF you move from NIC, ECA etc. to a full QA system such as 9001/14001, then full annual calibration will be the minimum for full traceability to international standards.
Checkboxes do not have to be calibrated.
Any suggestion that they do is a marketing hype, and an attempt to get more money from you.
Checkboxes are used as relative measurements not absolute.
The checkbox market has exploded with many versions that have gone so far away from the original requirement of a "set of resistors".
Some companies out there, which you all know of, use "features" as scare tactics to sublimely introduce nonsense requirements; all to warrant the inflated price.
This calibration requirement of checkboxes is one of these features manufactures are introducing!
Along with the other favourite of precision resistors.
Don't waste your money!
All you need is a set of resistors whether you bye them loose, on a box or on a card just like the CalCard
Any suggestion that they do is a marketing hype, and an attempt to get more money from you.
Checkboxes are used as relative measurements not absolute.
The checkbox market has exploded with many versions that have gone so far away from the original requirement of a "set of resistors".
Some companies out there, which you all know of, use "features" as scare tactics to sublimely introduce nonsense requirements; all to warrant the inflated price.
This calibration requirement of checkboxes is one of these features manufactures are introducing!
Along with the other favourite of precision resistors.
Don't waste your money!
All you need is a set of resistors whether you bye them loose, on a box or on a card just like the CalCard
Calltronics,
I agree with you completely with regard to resistance measurements.
How can you verify the other features of your test equipment, such as RCD trip current, RCD trip time, voltage, current etc.?
I also agree with the nonsense about precision resistors.
I have no vested interest in the manufacture or sale of any test or calibration equipment.
Once you have your check box and its values are verified, either from new by the manufacturer, then unless you have at least 2 other items to cross check against then you cannot have sufficient statistical confidence in the readings however to ensure that the 2 devices are still correct.
For checking the resistance features of your test equipment between calibrations then all you need really is a CalCard or as I have a few spare resistors, sorry Calltronics, I have loads of stuff like that kicking about! However, the risk is with loose resistors you could loose one like I have! However a device like the CalCard is less likely to be lost, thus it is more use than loose resistors!
There is one caveat to this however.
How can you verify that the output voltage & current of your meter when measuring resistance is still is within manufacturers tolerances unless this is measured? Say for example at a calibration check?
The level of calibration you require on your instruments is relative to the work you do. If you need to set up d.c. control voltages to +/-1% say on a long cable run on a power supply with feedback, then a CalCard is no use in proving the accuracy of your voltmeter.
BTW,
I was referring in my earlier post to the ability of the Seaward check box to verify the function of a PA tester, not the requirement for calibration.
Paul
I agree with you completely with regard to resistance measurements.
How can you verify the other features of your test equipment, such as RCD trip current, RCD trip time, voltage, current etc.?
I also agree with the nonsense about precision resistors.
I have no vested interest in the manufacture or sale of any test or calibration equipment.
Once you have your check box and its values are verified, either from new by the manufacturer, then unless you have at least 2 other items to cross check against then you cannot have sufficient statistical confidence in the readings however to ensure that the 2 devices are still correct.
For checking the resistance features of your test equipment between calibrations then all you need really is a CalCard or as I have a few spare resistors, sorry Calltronics, I have loads of stuff like that kicking about! However, the risk is with loose resistors you could loose one like I have! However a device like the CalCard is less likely to be lost, thus it is more use than loose resistors!
There is one caveat to this however.
How can you verify that the output voltage & current of your meter when measuring resistance is still is within manufacturers tolerances unless this is measured? Say for example at a calibration check?
The level of calibration you require on your instruments is relative to the work you do. If you need to set up d.c. control voltages to +/-1% say on a long cable run on a power supply with feedback, then a CalCard is no use in proving the accuracy of your voltmeter.
BTW,
I was referring in my earlier post to the ability of the Seaward check box to verify the function of a PA tester, not the requirement for calibration.
Paul
It is well established that RCD times, loop tests, etc. can be carried out on a "designated socket".
The new ECA BPG on meter accuracy DOES cover the need to check Voc and Isc on resistance range, as well as Voc on insulation range.
(for those who would ask- Voc=open circuit voltage; Isc=short circuit current).
If you have a multimeter, as many of us do, you can verify those parameters, and keep a record of them (some meters display the voltage delivered on insulation test).
If you take those readings when the machine has been calibrated, you have a reference to work to, so the multimeter does not need to be calibrated in order to do this.....
As SpecLoc said earlier, the chances of your meter & reference skewing at the same time, by the same amount, is infinitismal.
So, summing up is that, under normal operating environs, checkboxes do not need calibration. It is pointless & needless; as is returning your meter for calibration yearly.
( IIRC, more damage can be done to your meter in transit / carriage, than would if you had kept it yourself).
KME
The new ECA BPG on meter accuracy DOES cover the need to check Voc and Isc on resistance range, as well as Voc on insulation range.
(for those who would ask- Voc=open circuit voltage; Isc=short circuit current).
If you have a multimeter, as many of us do, you can verify those parameters, and keep a record of them (some meters display the voltage delivered on insulation test).
If you take those readings when the machine has been calibrated, you have a reference to work to, so the multimeter does not need to be calibrated in order to do this.....
As SpecLoc said earlier, the chances of your meter & reference skewing at the same time, by the same amount, is infinitismal.
So, summing up is that, under normal operating environs, checkboxes do not need calibration. It is pointless & needless; as is returning your meter for calibration yearly.
( IIRC, more damage can be done to your meter in transit / carriage, than would if you had kept it yourself).
KME
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A year earlier :slap
Aye - it was still earlier, wasn`t it?
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Oh yes
Just amused me that thread was exactly a year old. Little things..............
We'll have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of this mate.
However, it is horses for courses.
The statistical probability with just 2 devices is probably not acceptable for traceability back to national standards.
Is this required for general electrical installations testers, you'd have to ask someone at your scheme provided who really understands the topic, this could be difficult!
This would apply to MM's & designated sockets.
Damage to meter quite possible!
Calibration of MM to measure the output voltage/current yes it must be IF you are required to provide traceability to national standards, if not then it does not.
Any measuring device used to certify the accuracy of another must have its accuracy certified with traceability to national standards.
This device in turn must be independently verified from the equipment being checked according to the standards requirements.
This is all relative to the work being done. Is this required on an MFT used by an installation spark?
The only answer to that can be gleaned from your "governing" body.
However, many of them don't actually understand the "nuances" of "calibration" and traceability.
As I have said there is a LOT of debate on this.
Also, the requirements of manufacturers instructions will come into this. IF they state annual cal, then how can you deviate, in the same way if a shower maker says 30mA RCD how can you deviate? That is IF you want to keep "clean"?
Also there are customer requirements to consider. A domestic client will have zero accuracy requirements. You will be working to your scheme providers spec.
Larger "smarter" clients may well have other ideas. Also, we must consider the requirements of the manufacturers of the equipment we install, hence my example of the d.c. power supply with feedback earlier.
Not something you'll get in a domestic at the moment, however, it may come with the advent of more home automation which is moving toward kit very similar to industrial controls and the inverters & other kit involved with sustainable energy, where by the manufacturers instructions may well impose conditions over and above those required by 7671!
However, it is horses for courses.
The statistical probability with just 2 devices is probably not acceptable for traceability back to national standards.
Is this required for general electrical installations testers, you'd have to ask someone at your scheme provided who really understands the topic, this could be difficult!
This would apply to MM's & designated sockets.
Damage to meter quite possible!
Calibration of MM to measure the output voltage/current yes it must be IF you are required to provide traceability to national standards, if not then it does not.
Any measuring device used to certify the accuracy of another must have its accuracy certified with traceability to national standards.
This device in turn must be independently verified from the equipment being checked according to the standards requirements.
This is all relative to the work being done. Is this required on an MFT used by an installation spark?
The only answer to that can be gleaned from your "governing" body.
However, many of them don't actually understand the "nuances" of "calibration" and traceability.
As I have said there is a LOT of debate on this.
Also, the requirements of manufacturers instructions will come into this. IF they state annual cal, then how can you deviate, in the same way if a shower maker says 30mA RCD how can you deviate? That is IF you want to keep "clean"?
Also there are customer requirements to consider. A domestic client will have zero accuracy requirements. You will be working to your scheme providers spec.
Larger "smarter" clients may well have other ideas. Also, we must consider the requirements of the manufacturers of the equipment we install, hence my example of the d.c. power supply with feedback earlier.
Not something you'll get in a domestic at the moment, however, it may come with the advent of more home automation which is moving toward kit very similar to industrial controls and the inverters & other kit involved with sustainable energy, where by the manufacturers instructions may well impose conditions over and above those required by 7671!
I agree with you all and most of the comments made in this thread.
Especially the comment: -
I'm sure there are some of you out there that would question and raise issues with this next statement but I'm going to put the cat amongst the pigeons and ..........
Today's modern electronics with it's precision references and digitisation doesn't much allow for "drift" and re-calibration. If stuff fails today it fails Logic = true OR false, not somewhere in between.
The meters of today in my view either work or they don't. What I would be most interested in is today's calibration process and what ADJUSTMENTS they have/ or can make to today's modern instruments to bring them back into the stamp of calibrated.
I know I'm so going to regret starting this debate!
Perhaps I should start it on its own thread, to hear from the manufactures and instrument designers instead of been pushed by the somewhat belt and braises approach of "Governors", which is resulting in expense for electricians and generating an ongoing income for manufactures and those in calibration.
Especially the comment: -
What I do believe is happening, more so in this electrical market, is the fact that calibration and time periods are left overs from the dinosaur age of analogue electronics and moving coil displays. I was taught all this when I started electronics, even glass valve technology, yes I'm that old a dinosaur!
I'm sure there are some of you out there that would question and raise issues with this next statement but I'm going to put the cat amongst the pigeons and ..........
Today's modern electronics with it's precision references and digitisation doesn't much allow for "drift" and re-calibration. If stuff fails today it fails Logic = true OR false, not somewhere in between.
The meters of today in my view either work or they don't. What I would be most interested in is today's calibration process and what ADJUSTMENTS they have/ or can make to today's modern instruments to bring them back into the stamp of calibrated.
I know I'm so going to regret starting this debate!
Perhaps I should start it on its own thread, to hear from the manufactures and instrument designers instead of been pushed by the somewhat belt and braises approach of "Governors", which is resulting in expense for electricians and generating an ongoing income for manufactures and those in calibration.
Calltronics,
I do agree that much of this may be a left over from the analogue days, there are others of us onbhere that remember valves too!
However, even todays wizz bang digital meters have analogue bits, and with the value engineering that goes on goodness knows how good the kit is they put in there!
---------- AUTO MERGE Post added at 22:04 ---------- Previous post was at 22:04 ----------
BTW, don't be sorry it may well enlighten many members!
I do agree that much of this may be a left over from the analogue days, there are others of us onbhere that remember valves too!
However, even todays wizz bang digital meters have analogue bits, and with the value engineering that goes on goodness knows how good the kit is they put in there!
---------- AUTO MERGE Post added at 22:04 ---------- Previous post was at 22:04 ----------
BTW, don't be sorry it may well enlighten many members!
Yes, again totally agree with you.
When you measure anything analogue you must at some point have a converter or interface that is analogue based even as basic as an analogue to digital converter.
All of these analogues can be self verified using precision inbuilt digital stimuli, which a lot already utilise, for a simplistic example - when you zero/null the meter.
But my point is that these manufactures build reputations on serviceability, accuracy and ruggedness to name but a few features.
The stand up and be counted approach, just like the car industry does today with the extended warranty, should now be taken my manufactures who must now be in a technological position to guarantee accurate readings over longer periods than just a year.
Or is it the ambulance chasers they are scared of - and too rightly so, what a world we've made when prisoners get millions to shut up.
When you measure anything analogue you must at some point have a converter or interface that is analogue based even as basic as an analogue to digital converter.
All of these analogues can be self verified using precision inbuilt digital stimuli, which a lot already utilise, for a simplistic example - when you zero/null the meter.
But my point is that these manufactures build reputations on serviceability, accuracy and ruggedness to name but a few features.
The stand up and be counted approach, just like the car industry does today with the extended warranty, should now be taken my manufactures who must now be in a technological position to guarantee accurate readings over longer periods than just a year.
Or is it the ambulance chasers they are scared of - and too rightly so, what a world we've made when prisoners get millions to shut up.
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