Ebola

[Essex1]

So some parts of Africa now appear to be Ebola free. Sounds great right? Well it is sort of isn't it? Now the media and the west can carry on ignoring the real killers in Africa.

Some interesting facts for you. Since the Ebola 'outbreak' the following numbers of preventable deaths have been recorded:

Ebola - 4,492

Syphillis - 26,000

TB - 124,000

Hunger - 203,000

Malaria - 320,000

HIV/AIDS - 620,000

 

[NozSpark]

Some of those figures are scary.... especially the ones that have a simple, cheap solution.

Are those world wide figures btw?

 

[Essex1]

Just Africa.

 

[Sidewinder]

OK, so, why are such preventable illnesses still prevalent, when the countries in question, have been given £M in aid in financial form, rather than any other form, yet thousands of the population are dying from preventable illnesses, and there is no ratifiable correlation of the aid given with respect to the prevention of such issues?

Or, at least this is the way it seems?

I don't know, but, it seems many African countries have a wealth divide that dwarfs that in the EU & the UK, so why?

Why are the wealthy in these countries not supporting their own people?

Or is every piece of information I have seen incorrect?

 

[Essex1]

Have you ever been to Africa?

 

[Sidewinder]

Have you ever been to Africa?

WTF has that got to do with it, but no, have you?

If so, the only way it has ANY relevance is if you have been EVERYWHERE in Africa, and analysed the wealth divide for yourself, in detail, and can PROVE that it exists or does not exist, and provide this proof on this forum, which will stand up in a court of law.

It seems to be to me from your last post that you are stating that there is NO wealth divide ANYWHERE in Africa, so prove it.

Come on PROVE it.

 

[Marvo]

OK, so, why are such preventable illnesses still prevalent, when the countries in question, have been given £M in aid in financial form, rather than any other form, yet thousands of the population are dying from preventable illnesses, and there is no ratifiable correlation of the aid given with respect to the prevention of such issues?

Or, at least this is the way it seems?

 If only the Western govts learned as fast.
Throwing money at a problem and expecting a favorable result is a Western mindset, as is expecting that if you double the money you double the result. It doesn't work that way though I'm afraid.

A few of the obstacles are things like a President who states in a public court of law (during his own rape trial) that showering after sex prevents AIDS. The previous president's outright AIDS dinialism didn't help either and cost a third of a million people their lives, along with his 5 years of feet dragging masking retrovirals available. Then there's cultural stigma that encourages people to deny they have illness or a disease...oh and the widespread belief in Sangoma and traditional healers who'll prescribe anything from herbs to body parts made into muti. The list goes on but the bottom line is that money isn't always the cure.

It's a complicated situation and the problems aren't restricted to the uneducated, poor and tribal Africans, the educated and privileged Africans are still African, they're not Western. In the last 25 years I've mentored 5 electrical apprentices who were all from wealthy and educated backgrounds. They're all long dead and only one of them survived more than 3 years after qualifying. I'm at the point where I don't take apprentices any more, I just don't have the emotional energy.

I don't know, but, it seems many African countries have a wealth divide that dwarfs that in the EU & the UK, so why?

Why are the wealthy in these countries not supporting their own people?

Or is every piece of information I have seen incorrect?

Many of the wealthiest people in Africa are European born immigrants and they wouldn't consider poverty ridden Africans 'their people'. The wealthy/poor divide is the same as it is in Europe, it's just the ratios in each group that are different.

 

[Essex1]

WTF has that got to do with it, but no, have you?

If so, the only way it has ANY relevance is if you have been EVERYWHERE in Africa, and analysed the wealth divide for yourself, in detail, and can PROVE that it exists or does not exist, and provide this proof on this forum, which will stand up in a court of law.

It seems to be to me from your last post that you are stating that there is NO wealth divide ANYWHERE in Africa, so prove it.

Come on PROVE it.

Now now. Haha.

Since that you were the first and only one to mention the wealth divide in Africa why don't YOU start to provide this forum with evidence that will stand up in the court of law. I have made no claims at all so please. You go first.

Oh and yes I have been to Africa.

 

[Sidewinder]

Marvo,

Your responses are what I was expecting from Essex.

Whilst I have never been to Africa, I have several close friends who either are from there, or are Ex-Pats who have come back, so I do have an inkling of the issues.

I would never have suggested that the rich/poor divide was indigenous, however, it exists between the richest and the poorest, and, the difference is larger than it is in the EU.

Plus as you suggest, there is a different mindset, which it seems a LOT of the rest of the world do not understand.

However, the rest of the world still puts financial and humanitarian aid in the same form into the country.

This does not end up distributed as intended, because the recipients of the aid, have a different mind set.

I'm not saying it's wrong, but it is different, and a lot of the world cannot understand this.

Thus the aid never gets where it is intended to reach.

Right, wrong, criminal, fraudulent, natural, misunderstood, legitimate, what is it?

There is more than one way to look at the way the aid is provided and distributed.

 

[Essex1]

There are plenty of UK based charities that will build a well in Africa for say £30k - £40k. We done it for £10k.

Western charities are no different than African charities. Except the colours of the people's skin that mainly work for them. The head of the U.K. arm of Oxfam for example travels first class around the country. An African man does the same over there and we scream corruption.

 

[Sidewinder]

Now now. Haha.

Since that you were the first and only one to mention the wealth divide in Africa why don't YOU start to provide this forum with evidence that will stand up in the court of law. I have made no claims at all so please. You go first.

Oh and yes I have been to Africa.

You were asked to provide the proof, as you postulated that there are so many people dying from treatable illnesses, thus you have made a post that has stated the the "real" killers are not Ebola.

So, you are the one that needs to prove that these figures are due to the West & the media ignoring the plight of the indigenous peoples.

YOU are the one Essex, that has suggested that the deaths are due to the West.

So YOU prove that there are people in Africa who are starving and in dire need of REAL help from the rest of the World, whilst the Aid that is provided is not frittered away by the "powerful" in their countries so that those who really NEED the aid don't receive it.

Surely, as you have been to Africa, you can provide first hand examples of how the "so called rulers" of countries whose people live in abject poverty, also themselves live in abject poverty. I doubt you can.

There are more people in abject poverty and starving in Africa I suspect, than are in mainland Europe, however, in these countries where there are people dying of starvation and due to lack of clean water, that their so called "rulers" are also in the same position, I doubt you can.

Their so called rulers will be living in luxury with air conditioned homes and in affluence, at a level greater than those in poverty in mainland EU, whilst "their" so called people starve and die.

Am I totally wrong?

 

[Essex1]

You were asked to provide the proof, as you postulated that there are so many people dying from treatable illnesses, thus you have made a post that has stated the the "real" killers are not Ebola.

So, you are the one that needs to prove that these figures are due to the West & the media ignoring the plight of the indigenous peoples.

YOU are the one Essex, that has suggested that the deaths are due to the West.

So YOU prove that there are people in Africa who are starving and in dire need of REAL help from the rest of the World, whilst the Aid that is provided is not frittered away by the "powerful" in their countries so that those who really NEED the aid don't receive it.

Surely, as you have been to Africa, you can provide first hand examples of how the "so called rulers" of countries whose people live in abject poverty, also themselves live in abject poverty. I doubt you can.

There are more people in abject poverty and starving in Africa I suspect, than are in mainland Europe, however, in these countries where there are people dying of starvation and due to lack of clean water, that their so called "rulers" are also in the same position, I doubt you can.

Their so called rulers will be living in luxury with air conditioned homes and in affluence, at a level greater than those in poverty in mainland EU, whilst "their" so called people starve and die.

Am I totally wrong?

Oh my God. Someone has had a drink!!!

I never said the real killers were not Ebola.

I never said the deaths were the fault of anyone. Only that the media and the west seem to ignore these deaths.

I never mentioned aid At all in the op.

Slow down. Put the shandy down and have a glass of warm milk before you go to bed.

 

[Sidewinder]

There are plenty of UK based charities that will build a well in Africa for say £30k - £40k. We done it for £10k.

Western charities are no different than African charities. Except the colours of the people's skin that mainly work for them. The head of the U.K. arm of Oxfam for example travels first class around the country. An African man does the same over there and we scream corruption.

Charities are charities, the trouble is that the money does not always get to charities.

Also, if you are a charity volunteer, then you should be giving, not taking, yes, you are entitled to be safe in the discharge of your duties and the activities you do.

However, that does not necessarily reach to 1st class travel, unless it is unsafe to go any other way, and the same applies to where ever you are.

It is not the minor travel issues that I have "issues" with.

It is the wholesale corruption that is reported.

So, is this true, or is this a Western Media scam?

Why is it that there are reported to such a wealth divide in these countries, when, there should not be.

It's not the charity workers, they are often unpaid, so they should be kept safe, regardless of how they need to travel, no matter where they are from.

It is the so called "rulers" that seem, according to reports to be doing fine, whilst often their people starve & die.

 

[Essex1]

Hmmmm. In 2014, 32 UK charities paid their top person over £120k in saleries. One of them was actually paid £855k.

 

[Marvo]

Marvo,

Your responses are what I was expecting from Essex.....

Hmmm, I don't take that as a compliment I'm afraid..

Poverty is a relevant concept that's all to often measured in an irrelevant unit ($). Rural Africans are subsistant communities that farm, keep livestock and build their own houses. They live a subsistence lifestyle and don't lack anything they need but have none of the Western trimmings such as internet, iphones, cars etc. Does this mean they're poor or does this just mean you can't measure their wealth using an index such as their daily income in US$?.

The problem with 'aid' is that is usually political and the form it takes is often guided by political considerations at source rather than practical considerations on the side of the recipients.

Aid that gets sent often isn't relevant to the needs of the people receiving it. For example I spent 2 days repairing a groundwater pump installation in Mocambique this month that we installed as a contractor for the UN about 8 years ago. The pumps provide clean water for an isolated community of around 400 people. They haven't worked for over a year and possibly around 40 people died of various illnesses as a result. It's taken an entire year to get funds for the replacement pump but during that time they've received more HIV treatment medication than they can wave a stick at and there are only 7 known cases of HIV in the community. The value of the medication is probably 10 times the cost of the pump and most of the medication is unneeded but c'est la vie, or c'est la mort in this case.

 

[Sidewinder]

Hmmmm. In 2014, 32 UK charities paid their top person over £120k in saleries. One of them was actually paid £855k.

Exactly that is just wrong, however, in the grand scheme of things, in mainland EU, that is still less of a wealth divide than in the poorest nations in Africa I'll bet.

Hmmm, I don't take that as a compliment I'm afraid..

Poverty is a relevant concept that's all to often measured in an irrelevant unit ($). Rural Africans are subsistant communities that farm, keep livestock and build their own houses. They live a subsistence lifestyle and don't lack anything they need but have none of the Western trimmings such as internet, iphones, cars etc. Does this mean they're poor or does this just mean you can't measure their wealth using an index such as their daily income in US$?.

The problem with 'aid' is that is usually political and the form it takes is often guided by political considerations at source rather than practical considerations on the side of the recipients.

Aid that gets sent often isn't relevant to the needs of the people receiving it. For example I spent 2 days repairing a groundwater pump installation in Mocambique this month that we installed as a contractor for the UN about 8 years ago. The pumps provide clean water for an isolated community of around 400 people. They haven't worked for over a year and possibly around 40 people died of various illnesses as a result. It's taken an entire year to get funds for the replacement pump but during that time they've received more HIV treatment medication than they can wave a stick at and there are only 7 known cases of HIV in the community. The value of the medication is probably 10 times the cost of the pump and most of the medication is unneeded but c'est la vie, or c'est la mort in this case.

Exactly what I was suggesting Marvo, the aid does not get used where it is best needed.

All aid is needed, but, it must be correctly targeted and used.

This does not happen.

This is what is wrong, and your example is perfect.

However, it does not illustrate, as I suspect that you don't have access to the information, as to what the so called "ruler" of said country was "worth" in this time, I bet that they did not suffer in the same way as their "people"?

 

[Essex1]

It was not meant as a compliment.

This s exactly my point. Charities and the media want headline grabbing attention. HIV/AIDS is one of those. Hunger or lack of water is not. The complete disproportionate approach to Ebola compared to the other issues in the same communities really makes my Ming boggle.

I can imagine it now. All the charities packing up their tents and going home and patting each other on the back for a good job well done. Tell that to the kids that have starved to death or died of malaria in the same amount of time but just 60 times more.

 

[Marvo]

The UK charities that you're talking about are big business that operate under the guise of charity. Any organisation that takes one cent more than their operating costs is a business and any organisation collecting in the name of charity that doesn't keeps its overheads to a bare minimum is being underhanded. The UK has allowed these organisations to operate this way with impunity for decades and should be ashamed regardless of how they justify it to themselves.. 

 

[Sidewinder]

I never said what the UK charities were doing was right.

There is however, a larger real world "rich/poor" divide in Africa than is in mainland EU.

Subsistence people, don't lack food, perhaps, but, they do lack support and medication etc.

Do their countries "leaders" also, never I suspect.

The approach to Ebola was a threat to the "rest" of the World, thus, it will have been brought to the forefront, because it is sensationalist, and will generate headlines.

However, it is an easily communicable disease, and easily contained, so it was right to highlight it and contain it, if it had been allowed to disseminate and decimate the whole world population then that would not have been right either.

 

[Marvo]

Personally I don't have the stomach for it any more, seeing people die of famine or lack of medication for easily curable diseases or lack of potable water used to motivate me to be both reactive and proactive. Now I see how deep the problem goes I just get depressed. I can't find the words to describe the feeling of despair when someone who has lost 2 family members in the last 6 months kills one of his few remaining cattle to celebrate our arrival to repair the water pump. I'm now at the stage where I can't even look these people in the eye anymore.

It's all inconsequential anyway, the millions that die from HIV, malaria at the moment are only a fraction of the damage that's going to be done by warming weather patterns and GMO crops. Thankfully I won't be around to see the carnage in my lifetime or if I am I'll be too old to worry about it.