EICR coding

[Murdoch]

I imagine that I'm not the only one that has had more than a few calls about doing EICR's recently

So here's a serious question!

BS3036 fuseboard, supplementary bonding all in place, all Zs readings compliant with regs

No outdoor sockets

How do you code lack of RCD protection for the sockets?

For me its a C3 but a note on the form advising the landlord of their duty of care to their tenants and advising improvements

So that's my cards on the table - your thoughts

PS: It seems that the CPS's are promoting registration for EICR's but stopping short of saying its necessary from what I've read

 

[Phoenix]

You say no outdoor sockets, but are there any sockets likely to be used outdoors? (Thats going to be a yes in domestic unless there is no outside space).

If its  flat with no outside, or the only sockets likely to used outdoors are RCD protected (i.e. theres a garden but the porch socket is an integral RCd socket, and its not reaonably likely other sockets would be used outdoors etc, then I agree with your C3, if not then C2 (would could be addressed down to a C3 with rcd sockets in choice locations, although one I'd tried to steer them away from unless there was a sepcific reason etc).

Think the NICEIC official guidence was that any ground floor domestic socket could be expected to be used outside, good for a starting point, but I'd temper that with a bit of a common sense look at what is likely to happen, of course consider the other way as well, think about if the knackered lawnmower trips an RCD but the upstairs sockets stay on, then an extension lead out the first floor window might end up happening because it works fine from those

*thinking* I wonder how long we can class a 'general use' socket without RCD protection as satsifactory, its been twelve years since its been required, will we still be coding it as C3 in 2028 at 20 years?, how about in 2039, or maybe not untill anythone who worked under the 16th edition has retired. I must admit that I think I'd have a problem saying anything that was acceptable while I have been in the trade was unsatsifactory, however I suspect that I will have to revise that thinking as I get older!

 

[Murdoch]

TBH surprised by lack of input!

Re the NICEIC - "guidance" - this has always been one of my real gripes in the BS 7671 since RCD's were mandated for sockets (wasn't that the 16th Ed in 2001?) - BS 7671 should be far clearer!  After all the IET write the regs - the NICEIC just spin them !

 

[Phoenix]

16th edition only ever required RCDs for sockets upto 32A likely to be used for outside use, 17th edition in 2008 added in a requirement for sockets upto 20A intended for 'general use by ordinary persons. Admendmet 1 in 2015 changed this second point to all sockets upto 20A but allowed exceptions for specific labled sockets, installations under the control of a skilled person, or where a risk assessment was in place. The 18th in 2018, modified it again to 32A as well as removing the exceptions for labelled sockets and under control of a skilled person, leaving only risk assessment as a way to avoid RCD.

My opinion is the 16th edition requirements were too lax, the current requirements too over the top, and the original 17th requirements were probably somewhere where we needed to be, but probably needed a little refinement.

I started just after the new wiring colours came in, and back then you could wire a new installation without a single RCD or RCBO, although by that time it was considered good practice to at least provide such protetcion to kitchenette sockets and the cleaner's ring, now you cant move in the boards because of all the RCBOs!

 

[Murdoch]

Most guys around here took the 16th edition as being the key to add boards with RCD protection for sockets (of any value) which is the approach I took too as it made sense

 

[Evans Electric]

16th edition only ever required RCDs for sockets upto 32A likely to be used for outside use, 17th edition in 2008 added in a requirement for sockets upto 20A intended for 'general use by ordinary persons. Admendmet 1 in 2015 changed this second point to all sockets upto 20A but allowed exceptions for specific labled sockets, installations under the control of a skilled person, or where a risk assessment was in place. The 18th in 2018, modified it again to 32A as well as removing the exceptions for labelled sockets and under control of a skilled person, leaving only risk assessment as a way to avoid RCD.

Typical , everything over complicated  ...all this  RCD for outside only ,  then for plugs to 32A  , then a bit of paper saying  " Under skilled persons"  , then  everywhere  unless a label is fixed ,    no RCD for lighting  etc  , then RCD for everything ,   then  if the wiring is buried less than 50mm  in the wall  ,  then  another bit of paper to avoid fitting one ,  etc etc etc  

Talk about justifying  one's own existence .  Keep changing the Regs and taking the money .  

 

[Evans Electric]

Regarding the EICR   I'd say you'd need to code it C3    "Improvement recommended "          

Reasons :      Regs have updated to all sockets require RCd      /     Buried wiring requires RCD.  

I'm  doing a board change  for that very  reason tomorrow  ...  carried out an EICR on a rental  (despite being told I 'm not allowed to as all of a sudden  I can only test wiring installed by  Evans Electric )  .    

On the subject of codes   ...I can see very little difference  between    C1    Danger Present .    and  C2  Potentially dangerous .          Thats like saying  C1  You will get an electric shock  from this  ................   to  C2   You will get an electric shock  from this  and it will burn your house down  , tomorrow.    :C     

 

[binky]

for rental I do think RCD on sockets is a good idea / necessary. That doesn't mean changing a board to achieve though, as an RCD can be added external to the board for the socket cct.

 

[Murdoch]

I'm  doing a board change  for that very  reason tomorrow  ...  carried out an EICR on a rental  (despite being told I 'm not allowed to as all of a sudden  I can only test wiring installed by  Evans Electric )  .    

Who told you that?

 

[Murdoch]

On the subject of codes   ...I can see very little difference  between    C1    Danger Present .    and  C2  Potentially dangerous .          Thats like saying  C1  You will get an electric shock  from this  ................   to  C2   You will get an electric shock  from this  and it will burn your house down  , tomorrow.    :C     

Hum

C1 - exposed copper - immediate danger

C2 - cracked accessory etc 

 

[Evans Electric]

Who told you that?

ELECSA  assessor  .    I'm only assessed for  the Competent Person  scheme  .    As Evans Electric we  never bothered with full scope NICEIC  because no one ever asked for it in industry .  

In a previous entity we  did  NHS , police , MOD,  schools , Barclay's Bank  etc   all requiring NICEIC membership .     Had Part P not been inflicted upon us  I would'nt have joined anything TBH . 

So I was told that rental   EICR's   can only be carried out by  Full Scope NICEIC  .   NOT  a  mere  Part Pee Domestic Installer  .  ( Who  could have actually rewired said rental , tested it & notified it but can''t return in 5 yrs to do an EICR .   :C   

 

[Evans Electric]

for rental I do think RCD on sockets is a good idea / necessary. That doesn't mean changing a board to achieve though, as an RCD can be added external to the board for the socket cct.

You're right Binky .    I'd say under a duty of care  a landlord  should  fit RCDs   ,  even if its just to cover his ass  should the  would be manure  hit the  rotating extract device . 

 

[Murdoch]

ELECSA  assessor  .   

I would be asking why he’s saying that ... because there is no definition of competent in the new legislation so they have no authority to make such statements

Ive got my assessment due soon and it’ll be interesting to hear what Napit / Stroma say

and if they say something similar I’ll ask to back it up 

I’ve been chatting to pals locally and we are all united in the fact that we are not spening money on database listing, nor are we stopping what we’ve been doing for years either ..

 

[Sharpend]

I would be asking why he’s saying that ... because there is no definition of competent in the new legislation so they have no authority to make such statements

Ive got my assessment due soon and it’ll be interesting to hear what Napit / Stroma say

and if they say something similar I’ll ask to back it up 

I’ve been chatting to pals locally and we are all united in the fact that we are not spening money on database listing, nor are we stopping what we’ve been doing for years either ..

Well apparently, to get change all you have to do is arrange a protest march, loot a few shops, smash a few windows and you’re well on your way, it’s the youths idea :C  

 

[Evans Electric]

Ive got my assessment due soon and it’ll be interesting to hear what Napit / Stroma say

So would  I  Mate  .   As I said before ...I thought that , in our twilight  years , our dodgy  knees  etc   ...we may have turned our hand to rental testing  as it became mandatory .    Unfortunately  between my partner & myself we only have  100yrs experience  to offer .   

The more of this carp we get the more I deaf out ,  sit on my virtual  Appalachian mountain  porch , tune the old guitar &  whats it to be tonight  ..... "Busted flat in Baton Rouge , waiting for a train "  ....   that'll do . 

 

[kerching]

Regarding the EICR   I'd say you'd need to code it C3    "Improvement recommended "          

Reasons :      Regs have updated to all sockets require RCd      /     Buried wiring requires RCD.  

I'm  doing a board change  for that very  reason tomorrow  ...  carried out an EICR on a rental  (despite being told I 'm not allowed to as all of a sudden  I can only test wiring installed by  Evans Electric )  .    

On the subject of codes   ...I can see very little difference  between    C1    Danger Present .    and  C2  Potentially dangerous .          Thats like saying  C1  You will get an electric shock  from this  ................   to  C2   You will get an electric shock  from this  and it will burn your house down  , tomorrow.    :C     

YOU HAVE MAIL,!

 

[Evans Electric]

OK    :Salute        I'm halfway through Me & Bobbie Magee  ..........but avoiding the key change .    Right I'm with you now!!