Ever Heard The Phrase "ICERT"?

[OnOff]

No doubt a typical newbie question. Long story. I've been in touch with EDF about getting an REC switch / isolator fitted to my property. This has taken since last Wed with calls to them Weds, Thurs, Fri and today. Getting to the end of it hopefully with finally a really helpful girl who has phoned me back as promised when she said she would. She said that they will disconnect in the morning and reconnect pm after an electrician has fitted the switch. She did say that prior to reconnecting they will want to see an "icert". I said "What does that mean by an icert then?". I was pretty sure of what she meant but honestly had not heard it called this. She basically said "I don't know what it stands for, it's a special certificate........called an icert!" I countered with "So do you mean a Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate or an Electrical Installation Certificate?". She DIDN'T know and give here her due went off to ask her manager then called me back. I also said could she check if it would be OK for me to fit, I said I hold the 17th and 2330 Level 3.

She came back and it is the full Electrical Installation Certificate they want. As for the appointment she was quoting 10 to 14 days. I said (already told them this last week) that the stand alone RCD protecting the whole board is suspect - its a TT system by the way. "What's an RCD?" she said. I explained as simply as I could and she said she would call her meter team and call me back. This she did and as it is NOT an emergency they are coming on Monday 23rd January.

What I can't quite figure is in this case why a full Electrical Installation Certificate is needed rather than a Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate . I guess its that they won't re-energise an unsafe system? Shoot me down please if I'm missing something. The reason I want the REC fitted is so that I can safely isolate the old suspect system and get on with sorting it, the install out properly. Fit a new CU and then use it as my first ELECSA job. It seems a bit "chicken and egg" in that I can't do the live tests until the power is back on i.e earth loop and RCD tests. If I can't do the live tests then I can't complete the Schedule Of Tests properly?

Any suggestions? Thanks

 

[steptoe]

OnOff, IIRC you have a metal clad board fitted?

then you cant re-energise it with only an REC fitted,

it must have a front end RCD, you will have to change the board to an insulated one for them to re-connect if you dont have a front end RCD fitted with TT and a metal clad CU.

 

[OnOff]

OnOff, IIRC you have a metal clad board fitted?then you cant re-energise it with only an REC fitted,

it must have a front end RCD, you will have to change the board to an insulated one for them to re-connect if you dont have a front end RCD fitted with TT and a metal clad CU.

Thanks for coming back, you're right in that its's an old metal clad board but it DOES have a 30mA RCD on the front end and it's this RCD that I want to change! RCD in it's own enclosure is under the CU bottom left. Wishing now that the seal fairy had paid a visit!

 

[Andy™]

doesnt matter if the metal board has an RCD in it. its TT so cables entering it must be RCD'd

 

[steptoe]

thats what I mean OnOff,

you must have an RCD in a plastic enclosure before the metal clad board on TT, although 100mA would be the norm,

or else an insulated CU,

I dont think they will re-energise your MC board without an RCD before it, Ive had this in the past where customers have called me to fit RCDs for them before they could get their supply turned back on.

 

[ProDave]

Agree with the comments re rcd's, TT and metal CU's. But isn't that what OnOff wants? an isolator fitted so he can change the RCD. It sounds like you re saying he should change the RCD before the DNO comes back to re energise. If he does that, he might as well not bother with the isolator. Just ask for a temporary disconnection while he changes the RCD.

BUT don't you think the DNO are being just a little picky here?

What about the other thread, where the BG guy just came and fitted the REC? Talk about chalk and cheese. One DNO being helpful and doing the job for a fair price, so we can all get on and do things properly and safely. The other DNO being obstructive and making you jump through every hoop they can think of before they will do the job.

So they want an EIC before they will re energise. Fine if you are fitting a new CU while it's isolated. But you are not. So surely all you can issue is an EICR to show the existing install tests okay?

And what if they don't accept that? No supply until you jump through some more hoops?

It's no surprise when you meet this attitude, that next time it will be the seal fairy.

P.S I suspect ICERT means Installation certificate, or what's correctly known as an EIC.

 

[Lee321]

its because if the incoming supply cables (tails) short to the metal case the internal rcd is not protecting the casing. only protects outgoing circuits not the incoming.

 

[safedepth]

Am I missing something here? OP has said he wants an isolator fitted in order to safely replace his existing defective RCD which is already fitted correctly before the MC board. Why all of the posts on the RCD and MC board?

My experience with EDF is that they ask for a cert of some sort on the phone but the engineer doesn't ask to see it. I simply produce a cert with all dead testing complete just in case.

 

[OnOff]

Yes, I took "ICERT / icert" to mean "installation certificate" of whatever sort. You would of thought they would have used a standard term. I was amazed that the majority of the EDF operators had so little knowledge - asking what RCD stood for, for instance. To clear a few things up here then: My DNO is UK Power Networks not EDF. It is however EDF who are coming to do the disconnection / reconnection. Initially EDF put me on to UKPN, UKPN assured me it was EDF who I needed to talk to so I went back to them.

I want to end up with this:

BS1361 fuse

Meter

REC

RCD 30mA in its own INSULATED enclosure i.e what I have at present BUT actually working

CU - existing metal clad one

So, in effect what I already have. This is just until I fit the new CU - which incidentally will be repositioned inside the house

If there is any chance they will not re-energise then I will cancel the visit, change to BG as a supplier and see if I fair any better with them. I know it's a risk with the RCD not working to further delay it.

"Am I missing something here? OP has said he wants an isolator fitted in order to safely replace his existing defective RCD which is already fitted correctly before the MC board. Why all of the posts on the RCD and MC board?"

Apologies, don't quite see where you're coming from with the above.................what's wrong with wanting an REC fitted to change the existing faulty RCD? The only other way to change it would be to cut seals or work live which I don't want to do. Apologies once again if these are questions that have come up before!

 

[steptoe]

OK, cleared up for me ,

I had the impression you wanted an isloator fitted in place of the RCD ,

thats the way it read to me. sorry :Blushing

you are going to have problems doing an EIC with an unsatisfactory RCD in place though, unless

 

[Andy™]

OK, cleared up for me ,I had the impression you wanted an isloator fitted in place of the RCD ,

thats the way it read to me. sorry :Blushing

thats what i thought he was trying to do

 

[OnOff]

Sorry for any confusion here. Just trying to "do things right" and TBH finding it quite hard, wishing I'd done it "the other way". Seems a bit of a grey area as in testing "as is" it will obviously fail because of the RCD and generate what a C2 on the EICR? Or is this a C1? Will that prevent them re-energising? safedepths suggestion to just have the dead tests ready seems to be a good shout on the basis that I can't complete the Schedules without a properly functioning RCD. It would be nice to actually be able to talk to someone at EDF who actually knows what they're on about rather than these intermediaries who just go off and ask questions and SOMETIMES come back to you. I will maybe have the partially completed Electrical Installation Certificate ready on the basis of "You do your bit and I'll complete mine!".

Do these meter guys have any preferences as to biscuits/cake etc? 20 years ago I'd have got the wife to put a low cut top on