few testing questions

[soulman]

hello Chaps few questions for you:

1. Changing switches or light fitting like for like or movement of a switch. Would i be right in thinking, You Would just do a Zs if metallic and no other tests, also no paperwork? would this also be correct for a replacement of a shower!

2. if you changed a light fitting in bathroom would it require rcd protection or is only when installing a new circuit.

3.Consumer unit changes would they require R1+R2 test or could you just zs

4. (periodic inspection) I have noticed in the onsite guide & the electricians guide that Either the (R1 +R2) or R2 method have a tick. Does this mean as long as a zs is carried out you dont have to record the continuity.

Cheers

 

[Zeespark]

1 - Yes, as it is like for like, no paperwork needed officially.

2 - Same as above.

3 - I would personally test both Ze & Zs.

4 - Record Zs.

AndyGuinness

 

[Ali]

1- no paperwork for like for like replacement, but I think you do need paperwork for movement of a switch.

 

[Doc Hudson]

I would think that a shower replacement requires a bit more testing than a light switch replacement due to the loads involved and possibilities of poor connections and overheating.

Doc H.

 

[Zeespark]

My apologies - I didn't read the question fully.

AndyGuinness

 

[steptoe]

And unless the shower is identical in every way,

bear in mind also that the existing cable may have been covered in insulation since the original installation.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 09:31 ---------- Previous post was made at 09:30 ----------

BTW, I think CU changes require substantially more testing than just Zs.

 

[soulman]

Hi thanks for replies, sorry questions not worded very well and this is a bit long winded. Steptoe q. no.3 consumer unit changes i would conduct the full range of tests i was just unsure whether i could replace R1+R2 for Zs as one electrician i worked for, would do the full range of tests but another electrician would just conduct a Zs on any light fitting for example whether it was the end of the circuit or not & no R1+R2 testing at all.

Also when ever i was connected a new cooker or shower as a replacement. no paperwork or testing was ever done which i thought was unusual.

If i was changing a shower personally like for like. i would check connections at ccu, IR test the circuit, perform Zs & i wouldn't fit the shower if it wasnt run through a rcd device. i would also do mw cert just to cover my back. (is this a bit over the top or is down to the individual also should the shower be rcd protected if like for like?

I was always taught at college to at least conduct a Zs even if you were just changing a light fitting.

Ali movement of light switch, would i be correct in thinking that you would conduct test IR of the circuit & a zs at the lighting point it was controlling as mine being a 3 lead tester i would be unable to conduct a ELIT at the switch.

Sorry. one final question. once you,ve decided on a minor works cert do you then have a responsibility to check earthing & bonding.

Cheers chaps for keeping the rookies on the right path.

 

[Robin Spark]

Hi soulman,

if you really have a Soul, and a conscience then you always want to check that adequate earthing and main protective bonding is in place and supplementary where the installation is done to 16th edition.

Dont just think, "oh i have got to fill out a cert so it needs doing and i need it done properly!"

if you want to sleep at night and think "Yes i did a good job today, better than that other lazy spark who cant be bothered to test, cert and whatever other shortcuts he has taken!" then do it right first time.

Also if you notice things that your boss ( I assume you're employed?) didnt, then it shows you have initiative and understanding in your role as opposed to a muppet who is not really interested or capable in this type of work.

Customers often think I am strange when i ask the location of their stop cock and gas meter until I explain the safety reasons involved, and if you have difficulty explaining things to customers then get some free leaflets from the ESC regarding this.

Also as BS7671 says that manufacturers instructions should be taken account of (510.3) then as I think all shower manufacturers will say to install an RCD then to comply you will have to follow this.

Hope this helps.

 

[Technician]

New consumer unit; notifiable to Building Control, therefore full installation certificate plus schedule of test results. Not amounting to a periodic therefore no schedule of inspections?

Would suggest that there be an examination and test prior to the work to ensure that the new unit will not trip because of pre-existing faults if the old board was to BS3036.

Hope this is correct.

My personal view on minor works is that the tests required should always be done because it may be the first time anyone has looked at the installation since completion. A bit like a balance sheet, it is a snapshot of the piece and may indicate if any further investigations might be required.

 

[soulman]

Cheers, its amazing the differences from one spark to another, i remember getting bollocked for wasting time when installing a cooker (like for like) because i Ir tested the circuit & performed an ELI. which took about a minute.

Technician i thought an EIC must be accompanied by schedule of inspections as well as schedule of test results

I totally agree with technician as to a have a little look about as i am increasingly seeing properties without any connection to earth at all. In june this year i replaced a 2 lighting pendants for metallic fixings. i done a ELI test when the lamps were down, i always Zs twice at the samepoint the reads were massively apart, so i performed a Ze (tt install Ra) the reading were massively apart checked connection to earth rod and the earth rod came out in my hands it was about 10cm long and had corroded so that was the obvious problem when we spoke to customer she had extensive electrical work completed just 3 weeks prior by a large organization.

 

[Robin Spark]

New consumer unit; notifiable to Building Control, therefore full installation certificate plus schedule of test results. Not amounting to a periodic therefore no schedule of inspections?Would suggest that there be an examination and test prior to the work to ensure that the new unit will not trip because of pre-existing faults if the old board was to BS3036.Hope this is correct.

My personal view on minor works is that the tests required should always be done because it may be the first time anyone has looked at the installation since completion. A bit like a balance sheet, it is a snapshot of the piece and may indicate if any further investigations might be required.

I will have to slightly disagree with you on that one Technician.

If the customer will agree to a full PIR before the consumer unit change then that would be ideal, especially on an old installation where there may be hidden gems to trip you up on a board change. Good opportunity for a full house MOT so to speak

 

[Technician]

Yes; the householder would have to give permission. However the point should be made that without those tests the board may not work as intended in which case the householder is left without power.

IMHO a full set of insulation reads will confirm suitability if these AT LEAST are done.

When my board was changed I did my own tests. Just insulation as a full set. The installer advised me that incipient faults would cause the RCD to trip. I told him what I had done. That was that.

 

[martinxxxxxx]

I went to a house today and a spark has fitted and notified a new c/u

EIC and Schedule of test, but no Schedule of inspections which is wrong according to page 87 of GN3 paragraph 2.

He states 16mm earthing conductor but has only fitted 10mm

He states 6mm main bonding conductors when there is only a 4mm one to the gas and no bond at all on the water services

As for minor works any thing that that is part of the fixed wiring that is changed by someone charging to do electrical work should be accompanied by at a minimum a MWC. If you have to use a tool to do the work then a MWC is needed. If it is plugged in then there is no need. This is my interpretation of page 85 of GN3.

This is not a done as a theoretical excercise ; it is to ensure that the building you work on does not burn down. I hate the work that was done above and have a good mind to call the "electrician" and "discuss" it.

Martin

 

[Sidewinder]

martin,

No requirement for MWC for like for like maintenance.

Else basically correct.

No Schedule of Inspections, EIC is not valid, end of mate.

 

[kme]

I went to a house yesterday to install PV.......New CU 2 years ago, with a "part p" sticker on the front, with his name & address.

I wouldn`t have signed my name to it - SWA from outbuilding cut above CU, and just the cores going into the DB. Scruffy work inside the DB, couldn`t test Ze (TN-C-S), as there were two conductors coming from the side of the HED; and one was untraceable - think it may have been a bonding conductor somewhere.

(sorry - didn`t get a pic. But I`ll get one when I go back - customer wants it put right )

KME

 

[hammertime1981]

A cu replacement needs a full electrical installation certificate

 

[Sidewinder]

hammer,

ONLY for the work you do, mate, you can't cert anyone else's previous work remember!

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

.......... one final question. once you,ve decided on a minor works cert do you then have a responsibility to check earthing & bonding.Cheers chaps for keeping the rookies on the right path.

NOTHING to do with MWC or EIC ..

rather if you are doing any sort of alteration whatsoever!!!

check with 131.8 page 16 of the red un..

(I assume this reg is still in the green book?)

NO addition, temporary or permanent, shall be made to an existing installation, unless it has been ascertained that the rating and the condition of any existing equipment......... blah......blah.....blah......Furthermore, the earthing and bonding arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied for the safety of the addition or alteration are adequate.

Basically should ALWAYS double check earthing & bonding before doing any changes at all!

Guinness

 

[Technician]

Incidentally...my board was changed in the mid nineties when such things were not covered by full EIC. I asked for and received a minor works. I supplied my own kit, named after the famous magician who advised King Arthur; only because I had been familiar with it in a previous role.

Thank you for clearing that one up, Sidewinder. I could not find the hyperlink for the like.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Incidentally...my board was changed in the mid nineties when such things were not covered by full EIC.

eh???

mid 90's..... that would be yellow 16th ed book?

1992 Amd1 1994 thro Amd2 1997

what about reg 741-01-01 page 159 Yellow book????

Thats part of Chapter 74 Certification & reporting..

I do hope you are not confusing PartP building regs with what has always been good practice in BS7671.

:C