Grounds for recommending a full rewire?

[kedemmeju]

We had an electrician visit yesterday to get a quote for installing a new consumer unit, but have been told that the current wiring is not up to scratch and really we need a full rewire.

The house is a 2-bed mid-Victorian terrace that has been rewired at some point in the 70s when some extensive renovation work was carried out, including the addition of a bathroom extension. It has twin black/red and earth cable running throughout the house.

The electrician's main concern was the extensive use of junction boxes on the lighting and socket circuits which are under floorboards and between the ceiling joists. (We intend to replace the boards with engineered flooring as they're in such a state, so the junction boxes will be pretty much inaccessible after that.)

He also found evidence that some of the circuits had probably been modified by an unqualified person since the previous install, and in places the earth had been run unsleeved through conduit.

We had originally asked him to carry out an EICR but he said that he was fairly confident based on a visual inspection that it would flag mostly C1 and C2 codes, and that the safest option would be a full rewire with a new CCU.

I appreciate it's probably hard to say without seeing the house yourselves, but is his assessment accurate, or is he exaggerating the extent of the problem to generate a much bigger job? I've attached a few photos below.

We intend to get a second opinion, but any advice in the meantime would be gratefully received!

 

 

    

 

[ProDave]

That does look like junction box hell

He is probably right, a rewire is better, but he can't force you. He can however decline to do any work if he thinks what you want is not safe.

There is a halfway house that I do sometimes, I call it a refurbishment, not a rewire, I did one just a few weeks ago.  It is essentially a rewire, but using some legs of the original circuits where it can be verified the cable is in good condition to avoid too much disruption to the house, and adding new cable where there is doubt or where extra sockets etc are required.

Junction boxes under the floor are not good. But again if the cable is all good, you can replace these with maintenance free junction boxes.

But often it might well be cheaper to start again as tracing and testing existing cables may well take longer than fitting new.

 

[Geoff1946]

The last thing you want to do is spend time and money on refurbishment of floors and walls and THEN decide you should have rewired. 

To me this guy sounds genuine and has saved you money by not doing the formal report.

 

[Blue Duck]

Without testing you not gonna know the state of the internal wiring...

It may be better to start a fresh, especially as old houses have accessories in odd places, least you can have thing where you want them.

JB's equals bad... they may test out okay now but in the future should something come loose then your in a world of pain.

Without seeing the job we can't really say TBH.

 

[roys]

Where do you even get so much stripped copper wire that they are using for an earth, have they stripped it out of a length of t&e?

As above from Dave and Geoff, access to the wiring will probably be torture after the new floor goes down, if the wiring or plumbing is suspect get it done first.

Your sparky, from what you say, is giving good advice.

 

[kedemmeju]

Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. I didn't get the impression he was exaggerating but said to my other half I'd try to get some further advice.

We need to rip out and re-do the kitchen anyway in the next few months so I'll probably look to get the wiring done throughout the rest of the house at the same time.

Thanks for all the advice – greatly appreciated.

 

[Doc Hudson]

A typical problem with these type of situations, (which happen to frequently) is trying to get a balance of common sense for a solution between five perspectives:

1/ A homeowner who due to no fault of their own, thinks because the wiring has been working ok for years it must be still alright. 

2/ Laws of physics and guidance of BS767, (the wiring regulations), where a fundamental objective is to protect people, property and livestock, from the dangers that arise from electrical overload and shock. Electricity always generates heat in a circuit, weak joints create more heat and potential fire. Exposed live parts or parts that could become live during a fault can kill a healthy adult in less than a second if physical contact is made between a person a live part and earth.

3/ The duty of care placed upon a skilled, qualified competent person who understands the dangers of electricity and undertakes electrical alterations for monetary gain. (If someone is killed or a house buns down they cannot plead ignorance that a DIY homeowner could.)

4/ The honest desire of a reputable electrician, who wants to do a good days work, issue an electrical certificate with his/her name signed in a declaration box, stating that all of their work is fully compliant with the current wiring regulations. Whist earning enough money to cover the costs of materials, calibrated and verified test meters, public liability insurance, membership of any trade bodies, plus all of the general non-trade specific overheads etc. And keep their customer happy with a job where 80%+ of the work done is not actually visible without dismantling the fabric of a building.

5/ An abundance of mates down the pub who know electrics and can get a fuse box for £75 from B&Q/Screwfix/Wickes etc.. and are more than happy to swap someone's fuse box for £100cash + the box and give no certificates, or testing of anything, But it will "work".

Although with some visible work it is easy to identify DIY bodge jobs, due to the hidden nature a lot of shoddy electrical work is never identified until someone with appropriate test meters starts investigating a circuit. But more often that not a competent person can get a pretty good feel of an installation by just walking around and looking inside a few accessories, the fuse box, plus the condition of any exposed wiring in garages, sheds, gardens etc.   

Replacing a fuse box alters the characteristics of every circuit supplied by that fuse box, as such the certificates declaration includes liability for all of the test readings for those circuits. From the photos posted I can appreciate the electricians reluctance to be willing to do just the fuse box and sign the associated electrical certificate. A well designed installation should be aiming for zero junction boxes if possible. 

Doc H. 

 

[Evans Electric]

It doesn't look very professional  to be honest ...I wouldn't be happy with it ,  specially if you will be virtually sealing the floors when your machined flooring goes down . . 

Its much like noticing  some dodgey looking water pipes  or corroding heating pipes  below the floors  and sealing them in under posh new flooring .  Bad idea.

Your electrician may be thinking  , you pay for a survey  as in an  Electrical Installation Condition Report  (  EICR )  and he has to sign it off as " Unsatisfactory" 

 

[kerching]

As it dates from the 70s some of the wiring may  be Copprclad Aluminium.......it's usually ok if not touched and it was installed correctly. Find one that was installed by someone who liked to tighten stuff up until it squeaked then there could be a world of pain awaiting you

 

[Bruspark]

If you are selling it next week then let it alone

If you are going to to live there for 5 years+ I bet you will end up taking your nice flooring up (or ceiling down) to access the ancient wiring / boxes and will then curse not getting it done now. . 

When you do sell it a buyers survey will likely cost your the money you think you are saving now while not giving you the benefit over the coming years.

Or as I often put it :  If this conversation was about the gas boiler or heating pipes what would you do?    

 

[Evans Electric]

Thats a good point from Bruspark .....if you are there for the long haul   I'd go for the rewire .

Is that a clamp on your incoming main cable  ?   

 

[kedemmeju]

Is that a clamp on your incoming main cable  ?   

Yes – it leads to the fusebox (made by MEM, it has a sticker to say it complies with the 13th edition).

If you are going to to live there for 5 years+ I bet you will end up taking your nice flooring up (or ceiling down) to access the ancient wiring / boxes and will then curse not getting it done now. When you do sell it a buyers survey will likely cost your the money you think you are saving now while not giving you the benefit over the coming years.

Couldn't agree more – this is the line I've taken whilst trying to convince my other half. Last thing I want to be doing is ripping everything out again because a fault develops in 3 months time. As we've stripped more of the house back we're finding more and more questionable work by previous owners.

We've got another sparky coming out today to take a look and give us a quote for comparison.

Thanks for all your help.

 

[steptoe]

As an example,

I moved into my house 10 years ago, it was built (and wired) late 70s,

I rewired it, it didn't need it, but as I'm intending living here for a few years it would deffo need rewiring in my occupation,

 

[binky]

 If you are ripping out the kitchen anyway, then I suspect most issues can be resolved with that work. Cable at nearly 50 years old is going to be nearing the end of its life - testing will ascertain if its any good or not, but as there are no diffinitive guidance on cable life, the test resuts will be open to opinion regardless (in theory anything that passes test is good for 10 years). As stated above, it would be worth resolving any issues like hidden JBs before fitting new flooring. As Pro Dave has said, it may be possible to refurbish rather than full re-wire, but it isn't that much of a cost saving in my opinion. A full rewire could be done in stages, ie start with kitchen, new board and replace feeds to upstairs sockets / lights whilst trashing kitchen. Then extend works from that on a room by room basis - this saves damage to decor in every room and having to live with that until a room is ready to be redone, unless you are lucky enough to be able to afford to renovate whole house in 1 go

 

[John Clark]

We had an electrician visit yesterday to get a quote for installing a new consumer unit, but have been told that the current wiring is not up to scratch and really we need a full rewire.

The house is a 2-bed mid-Victorian terrace that has been rewired at some point in the 70s when some extensive renovation work was carried out, including the addition of a bathroom extension. It has twin black/red and earth cable running throughout the house.

The electrician's main concern was the extensive use of junction boxes on the lighting and socket circuits which are under floorboards and between the ceiling joists. (We intend to replace the boards with engineered flooring as they're in such a state, so the junction boxes will be pretty much inaccessible after that.)

He also found evidence that some of the circuits had probably been modified by an unqualified person since the previous install, and in places the earth had been run unsleeved through conduit.

We had originally asked him to carry out an EICR but he said that he was fairly confident based on a visual inspection that it would flag mostly C1 and C2 codes, and that the safest option would be a full rewire with a new CCU.

I appreciate it's probably hard to say without seeing the house yourselves, but is his assessment accurate, or is he exaggerating the extent of the problem to generate a much bigger job? I've attached a few photos below.

We intend to get a second opinion, but any advice in the meantime would be gratefully received!

 

 

    

 

[John Clark]

This electrician seems to know what he is talking about trust him looking at the photos your wiring does not look safe think of fire risks