Help, cu change cert and advice......

[Tarzan]

POSTED TEST RESULTS>>>>

Asked to change a cu for a client .

I have just finshed my 2330 level 2 with distinctions for practical and theory and rolling on to the 3rd year in september. I have worked as a mate for 18 mths on various projects and i felt confident on doing the job. I served my time as a security systems engineer.

To keep things legal and proper i prearranged for a niceic spark to check over and test the board and all circuits.

Now the spark failed 3 circuits, 1 ring main and 2 lighting circuits as the continuity and earthfault readings are two high. Fair enough.

Now is it like an mot for a car and i will get a fail sheet??

I need to reapproach the client, how should i go about this as i know they will not understand the problems as everything works.

Any advice welcome and thanks for your time (i now realise perhaps i should not of taken the job on and i wait to be ripped by you lot) :Salute

 

[sellers]

I give my clients a mini electrical lesson, I think half the time they just nod and prepare the wallet, but the other half start to get it.

Use some buzz words like fire and shock that'll get the problem solved. If zs is too high explain that in the event of a fault the mcb may not trip meaning that what ever has caused the fault will continue to spark, arc, catch fire.

If the circuits are rcd protected your zs can be as high as 1667ohms

 

[monkey5]

i always test first now before ripping out old fuse box just incase customer wont pay for finding/fixing faults and im sure once you change board you responsible for whole installation.

 

[sellers]

i always test first now before ripping out old fuse box just incase customer wont pay for finding/fixing faults and im sure once you change board you responsible for whole installation.

Your not really responsible. It would make you irresponsible to reconnect a live circuit. When I change, if any dangerous circuits, circuit is left isolated, customer signs a declaration of what the fault is, why it has been left isolated.

Then its upto them if they want to turn it on. Thats if they wont pay to have it fixed. At least the install is safer with rcds and 60898's rather than bs3036

 

[Tarzan]

Hmmmmm, I hear you.

would i get a fail sheet?

 

[Andy™]

Hmmmmm, I hear you.would i get a fail sheet?

first of all, the most the electrician could do would be test. he would not be able to give an EIC (unless you sign design & construction). also, it would be illegal for him to notify it for part p.

now i dont know the exact reasons for the fail (apart from 'readings too high'), but assuming you installed a dual split, then Zs can be much higher than Zs values for MCB's. this is not to say that it can simply be connected because of the RCD - it may be high because of dodgy connections which do need rectified

before starting work, i always make customers aware that any circuits found to be in an unsafe condition will not be energised and will require further investigation/repair

 

[Tarzan]

[quote name='Andy

 

[NozSpark]

[quote name='Andy

 

[sparkytim]

Yes a Consumer Unit change needs an EIC. It is also work that is notifiable to your Local Authority Building control.

On testing a schedule of Test results should be filled out, a sample type is shown in BS7671.

From this it can be determined why these circuits "fail" the tests.

 

[Andy™]

for a new CU, an EIC must be issued, and in england & wales, must be notified to LABC, or self cert.

a PIR is a report on existing wiring and is not acceptable for new wiring. it is used as a report on condition of existing wiring only.

from your lack of knowledge, it would appear this is way above your capabilities at the moment. i would suggest you wait until you have the necessary experience/knowledge before taking on any more jobs like this (or give it to the person who you said tested, and help them with it).

and its rare for a ring to be wired in 4mm T&E.

and i wont even ask if you have insurance.

(and is that the cheshire in england, or cheshire in Brazil)

 

[Andy™]

Priced one today (

 

[Tarzan]

Priced one today (

 

[Tarzan]

[quote name='Andy

 

[Andy™]

are you sure its not a radial ? would explain a higher reading than a ring, but not the high reading you have. also, was that number simply R1R2 or Zs?

could just be a case of a dodgy connection somewhere that will take an entire 5 seconds to fix.... finding it is the problem though. and then the same again for the other circuits.

was R1R2 taken? or R2Rn? would give you some idea if the fault is in the live or earth, or both

you could also take a reading at multiple points. may help narrow down where the fault is

 

[Tarzan]

Now we are talking. Defo a ring, the old board was a brown wylex with fuse wire in the pull out fuses, two 4mm connected.

a wire link was placed between earth bar and mcb/dead test (r1rr2 ?)

 

[NozSpark]

One of the members on here gave me the bare bones (single page) of the site and did the banner graphic for me... he's not posted for a good while now

and I did all the content.

Got it hosted at lincs web hosting.. cost me at the time < 1 weeks local rag advert for 2 years domain name and 1 year hosting

 

[NozSpark]

Now we are talking. Defo a ring, the old board was a brown wylex with fuse wire in the pull out fuses, two 4mm connected. a wire link was placed between earth bar and mcb/dead test (r1rr2 ?)

Sounds more like imperial cable then... (7/.036)??

was it tinned copper with a stranded CPC?

 

[Tarzan]

Stranded 4mm with a solid 1.5 earth

 

[sparkytim]

So do you know how the 2.1 ohm reading was obtained?

A R1 +R2 reading would not involve connection of L to CPC at CU for a Ring Main Test.

First test end to end of disconnected Ring main conductors i.e. L to L, N to N cpc to cpc,

What are these readings? the L to L and the N to N should be about the same.

The cpc to cpc should be higher (smaller conductor)

If ok and you have readings then it is a Ring.

Next you need to cross over and connect the L from one cable with the CPC of the OTHER and the same with the the other pair.

What reading do you get ? IF this is a ring and all sockets are ON the ring this is your R1 +R2 value.

Keep these connections in place and now test between L and CPC at ALL SOCKETS.

All sockets ON the Ring should measure the same or thereabouts as the reading at the CU. Any with higher readings will be spurs OR faulty connections.

Cross over should also be done with L to N to confirm N continuity.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Evening all.Asked to change a cu for a client .

I have just finished my 2330 level 2 with distinctions for practical and theory and rolling on to the 3rd year in september. I have worked as a mate for 18 mths on various projects and i felt confident on doing the job. I served my time as a security systems engineer.

To keep things legal and proper i prearranged for a niceic spark to check over and test the board and all circuits.

Now the spark failed 3 circuits, 1 ring main and 2 lighting circuits as the continuity and earthfault readings are two high. Fair enough.

Now is it like an mot for a car and i will get a fail sheet??

I need to reapproach the client, how should i go about this as i know they will not understand the problems as everything works.

Any advice welcome and thanks for your time (i now realise perhaps i should not of taken the job on and i wait to be ripped by you lot) :Salute

Hello Tarzan...

Just been reading this thread trying to figure out exactly what the sequence of events and what the current situation is..

i.e

Have you already replaced the CU o

Your comment and question

"To keep things legal and proper i prearranged for a niceic spark to check over and test the board and all circuits

Now is it like an mot for a car and i will get a fail sheet??."

Do you mean:-

i) you have paid an approved contractor to do a PIR on the installation..

or

ii) you have just asked a friend who happens to be an electrician to come and test a few bits for you..

If it is i) you will have a formal periodic inspection report with a list of guidance observations and an overall evaluation of satisfactory or unsatisfactory that you can show to your customr....

If it is ii) you will get nowt .. bit like just chatting to friend who runs a garage about you car wont get an MOT cert, booking the car in a paying for an MOT and you will get an MOT cert or fail report!

The problem you highlighted here is the fundamental one, summed up in the phrase, (that I think NICEIC had on there website), "It is EASY to make something work, but its a bit more complicated to make it work SAFELY."

99.9% are cars are "working" before they go for their MOT... but still don't pass the basic essential Safety tests.

to continue the car analogy:-

You first of all need to explain to your customer that as with a car with a faulty Air bag and/or ABS breaks that are not performing and/or seat belts they do don't lock during sudden jolts...

The car appears to be working ok..

It is only during an accident that it kills you rather than saves you..

and their circuits can supply power to work appliance under nominal condition..

but during a fault would NOT disconnect the power to prevent overload (and potential fire risk) or Leakage and potential electric shock.

So..

what actually is the current state of play..

Is the new CU actually fitted?

What are the FULL details of the other contractors concerns over the safety of the installtion...?

You have NOT provided enough details yet..

forgive me if this sounds daft but on your course have you reached the stage about filling in electrical installation certs yet ?

(been a few years since I did my C&G's cant remember where what bit appear down the process)

If you have you will understand the need for the full test results for the circuits..

i.e.

MCB and/or RCD and/or RCBO Breaker types, Cable types, Inst methods,

R1+R2, insulation resistance, polarity Zs, RCD op times etc..

Without seeing ALL the figures and details its a bit tricky to correctly evaluate fully what he other guys concerns were?

:coffee