Hmo Fire Detection And Rewire Advice

[freedomrun]

I've been asked to rewire a domestic dwelling (I'm Part P certified & have additional insurance to install fire detection equipment within domestic dwellings). The Customer has bought the house and asked me to rewire the entire property and install a heat detetctor in the kitchen and 1 in each circulation area (hallways upper & lower) They will be mains operated Radio Linked. The property has a kitchen 2 beds and a living room & bathroom / WC included.

Now - the customer has had the property fitted with two shower rooms, 2 toilets & basins and asked me to connect wiring / isolation to 2 Electric showers that are being plumbed in, i'm wondering if the customer intends to rent the property out and maybe even turn the living room into a 3rd bedroom - maybe as a student house.

I've asked the customer if he intends to rent out the property and pointed out that this will class it as a HMO & he needs to get the local authority to specify what they require. I'm told by the customer that he is undecided on renting it out or not at present. And may just sell it on after it's been modernised.

I think it's reasonable to put something in writing to the customer and get him to sign it stating that at the time of the re-wire completion, the property may not meet HMO specifications as determined by the local authority if used as a HMO in the future and would require an upgrade of the fire detection / lighting & Alarm system. That way i'm covered if he puts students in and they burn the place down and kill someone. Also if someone else purchases the property and puts students in. I was going to state this on the Certification also.

Has anyone else had problems along these lines, any advice please? - Many Thanks.

 

[kme]

2 things come to mind.

1 - If its being rewired, wouldn`t it be better to put wired interlink alarms in, rather than radiolink? Just an observation.

2 - You can only work to what the client wants, and what is in front of you. I`d expect the wiring specification to tell you if its going to be a multi-occupancy building or not. 2 electric showers? Watch the maximum load. Your cert will be for the one supply, and one property being modernised, with its one DB. If they make it into a HMO, it`ll be split up; and the fire alarm install you outline won`t be sufficient.

KME

 

[NozSpark]

I'm in the middle of something quite similar..

At the start of the total renovation and alteration/additions to the property, it was going to be a B&B and on asking the owner he was adamant that he only wanted a domestic alarm installed and that his architect had confirmed that it would be suitable given his final use of the property. Confirmed it twice he did!

So I went ahead and installed what he requested and have made several notes on the fire alarm cert.

Guess what? He's now looking at renting it out to a council housing association, so it'll now be a HMO after all

 

[philbas]

From the government website https://www.gov.uk/private-renting/houses-in-multiple-occupation

If you live in an HMO, your landlord must meet certain standards and obligations. Find out more about HMOs from Shelter.

My bold.

Iit's his problem to make sure he complies with the law.

Not the electricians, or the plumber or the carpet fitter or the carpenter, it's his.

We have enough regulations to  abide to as it is as it, without having to advise landlords on the law regarding to landlords.

That's his job he should be aware of the laws that affect him, If you have done the job correctly then nothing to worry about, it's his problem if he changes the use of the property

 

[sellers]

To my suprise Blackpool council have allowed for me to install mains linked detectors in hall, landing and kitchen of a HMO and just plain battery detectors in all other rooms.  At request of the landlord.  Didn't really agree with it.

 

[kme]

To my suprise Blackpool council have allowed for me to install mains linked detectors in hall, landing and kitchen of a HMO and just plain battery detectors in all other rooms.  At request of the landlord.  Didn't really agree with it.

If it is classed as an HMO ( building converted to multiple occupation) then I believe the council`s advice might well be in contradiction to the RR(fs)O 2005. When we looked into this for a private landlord locally, we found that, because the buildings were purpose built for multiple occupancy, HMO regs didn`t apply. 

In your position, I`d speak to the local fire safety officer.

OOps. Looks like I`m corrected by our resident expert (see below)

M - I wasn`t suggesting radiolink to be unsuitable; simply that, if you`re rewiring anyway, why not have `em hardwired?

 

[M107]

To my suprise Blackpool council have allowed for me to install mains linked detectors in hall, landing and kitchen of a HMO and just plain battery detectors in all other rooms.  At request of the landlord.  Didn't really agree with it.

I asked my mate who is a fire risk assessor & he gave it the thumbs up if the building is two storey & each room has a fire door. In fact he said it would meet fire regs if radio linked bases were used.

 

[freedomrun]

Many Thanks for the replies here - very useful. I agree - it's up to the owner, if they ask that a property be rewired as is, then it's up to them to contact the local council when they want to rent it out as a student let after i've done the works according to the contract.

I may well use hardwired detectors as suggested - does the same job, might as well as i'm rewiring anyway. I was going to put the upper hall smoke on the upper lighting cct and the other 2 on the lower lighting cct as apposed to a cct dedicated to the detectors. Any reason why not?

 

[NozSpark]

There's no problem in using local circuits to power smoke alarms, but having 2 floors using different circuits would mean that they wouldn't both go off in the event of a fire, ,,, unless you link the two together using a couple of RF bases..

I really can't understand why you're not fully hard wiring on a rewire, unless there's an obstacle that's near impossible to cross.

 

[kme]

Your post this morning suggests you`re considering hardwired - in which case there is only one point of connection to supply - usually at the consumer unit

 

[freedomrun]

Not wanting to go off topic to much .. but if the smoke and heat detectors on the lower floor are on the down lighting cct and the upper smoke detector on the upper floor lighting cct, then interlinking them hardwired would ensure they all go off in the event of an emergency even though one of the detectors is on a separate cct to the others ( also they would have battery backup ) - as mentioned, access is not a problem in this case.

I would prefer to connect detectors to the lighting cct's as it would be obvious to the occupier that the cct was not functional in the case of a fault. If the detectors were on a dedicated cct, then it would not be so clear.

I would be using detectors of the same brand / model.

Why would they not all sound together as mentioned in the previous post if connected to separate cct's?

 

[batty]

You really should not be wiring it that way not sure what wiring reg number it is but it certainly breaks at least one. It says you a rewiring  the place so why don't you do it correctly and have it either on one lighting circuit or put it on its own circuit.

 

[NozSpark]

Can you not see any problem with having two seperte circuits interlinked through the smoke alarms?

If you are insistent on wiring each floors alarms like this then the only way to interlink them is to use a couple of RF bases,, however why not just wire them off a single lighting circuit; one that supplies the bedrooms is good as they will certainly notice if that circuit had tripped.

 

[freedomrun]

Yes, thanks for the advice here. I'm going to wire them all off the same lighting circuit as suggested, interlinked with battery back up.

 

[steptoe]

easy tip for wiring smokes off a lighting circuit,

CU to downstairs alarm,

3c link to upstairs alarm,

T&E link to first upstairs light,

job done, and one less cable to pull in,