How to mains bond when there is no access...

[nick777vvv]

I'm a consumer and have just had a kitchen extension built.

I've discovered that no mains bonding has taken place.

The wire from the consumer unit is in place but was never connected to the incoming water supply. The pipe supplying mains water is now buried under six inches of concrete. Before the concrete was poured, the plumber attached plastic piping to the rising main and made a 'T' connection.

Piping to the right of the T goes direct to the kitchen sink taps and is plastic all the way. Piping to the left of the T is plastic for a few meters until it connects to the copper piping feeding the hot water system and cold feeds for the rest of the house.

At the same time as this, my consumer unit was replaced (to accommodate under tile heating). I've not received any certificates so far and wonder if they can be issued while I have no mains bonding...

I am no electrical expert but would like to know where I stand and what the solution should be. I've spoken to the trades that did the work but am not getting anywhere.

Any help would be most appreciated.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Hello Nick where abouts in the country are you...?

1/ Earthing and bonding should be checked BEFORE doing any alterations!

http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/public/leaflets/E_B2011webA4screen.pdf

BUT...

not all pipework needs bonding if non-extraneous and full RCD protection fitted.

2/ Almost all electrical work except for very minor like for like replacements (especially changing a CU),

Should have an electrical certificate issued...

3/ If you are in England or Wales this should also have a Building regulations compliance certificate issued!

Part-P building regulations.

http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADP_2006.pdf

Pages 8 & 9 detail notifiable works.

4/ Is the electrician a member of one of the approved bodies NICEIC, NAPIT, ELECSA, BSA ?

if yes you can complain to his trade organisation....

5/ Have you already paid for the work?

6/ Did you have a written agreement detailing what you are actually paying for?

if 3 is a YES and 4,5, & 6 are NO..

you probably employed a cowboy and got what you paid for and will have trouble getting it sorted correctly without paying out more!

http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/documents/public/ordering_work/ESC_Consumer1.pdf

p.s.

We have a download section on the forum where other useful info can be obtained..

but you have to make a payment to cover some of admins bandwidth usage charges!

GuinnessGuinness

 

[ProDave]

As this work is for an Extension, that WILL require building regulations, and building control won't issue a completion certificate until he is satisfied with the electrical installation and has received the correct certificates.

Make SURE you withhold a substantial part of the final payment until you have the completion certificate from building control, so that the builder / electrician have an incentive to complete the job including certification before you give them the final part of their fee.

I would say in this case the bonding should connect to the existing copper pipe.

BTW you original post makes it sound like you expected the pipe to be bonded underground. That never happens. The pipework should be bonded somewhere close to the incoming supply stop cock but there are rules that say where, and those rules are different if sections of plastic pipe are present.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

I have to disagree with Dave. From your description, the water pipes are not bring in a earth potential so do not need bonding. There is no need to bond across plastic joins.

 

[Badger]

oh so when i bonded a plastic water pipe last week was a complete waste of time then :C

 

[Manator]

oh so when i bonded a plastic water pipe last week was a complete waste of time then :C

I would say yes, however knowing you as I do I guess your just having a larf

 

[kerching]

oh so when i bonded a plastic water pipe last week was a complete waste of time then :C

Is that what those Erico plastic clamps are for then?...often wondered................................ :coat

 

[nick777vvv]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

The electrician was sub-contracted by the firm who built the extension so I've not paid anything directly. I've seen no certificates but will be chasing that up.

Reading between the lines, I'm presuming that the plastic pipework to my kitchen water supply is safe as everything is plastic from where the water now comes up from the concrete screed(correct?!). As to the pipework to the rest of the house (cylinder, rads etc) what should I be expecting an electrician to do? Bond to the nearest point where the copper piping takes over from the plastic...?

Thanks

 

[ProDave]

Reading between the lines, I'm presuming that the plastic pipework to my kitchen water supply is safe as everything is plastic from where the water now comes up from the concrete screed(correct?!). As to the pipework to the rest of the house (cylinder, rads etc) what should I be expecting an electrician to do? Bond to the nearest point where the copper piping takes over from the plastic...?

Thanks

Personally I would ensure the original copper pipework is bonded.

We still don't have the full picture here. Before the extension was built, the original pipework would / should have been bonded close to where the rising main was close to the stopcock.

I can only guess, that you now have a new plastic rising main in the extension, and you have abandoned / disconnected the original rising main that fed the original house.

Under current regs there are rule about whether it needs bonding or not, but personally I would be happier with it bonded, as it would / should have been done under earlier versions of the regs.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

nick777vvv, In a typical house, from your description the pipework probably does not need bonding. However the problem electricians always have is proving whether or not metal pipework is introducing an earth potential. It is often easier & cheaper to bond the first part of the metal service than to prove otherwise. Also the electricians client was the builder, not you and he may have passed the paperwork to him. You have to be aware of this & choose your words carefully before making any accusations

 

[Manator]

Thanks for the feedback guys.The electrician was sub-contracted by the firm who built the extension so I've not paid anything directly. I've seen no certificates but will be chasing that up.

Reading between the lines, I'm presuming that the plastic pipework to my kitchen water supply is safe as everything is plastic from where the water now comes up from the concrete screed(correct?!). As to the pipework to the rest of the house (cylinder, rads etc) what should I be expecting an electrician to do? Bond to the nearest point where the copper piping takes over from the plastic...?

Thanks

We are trying to read between the lines here, we have not seen the installation and could not comment on the bonding without full understanding.

The first fix may have been done under the assumption that all copper tubing was to be installed, therefore a bond that is not now required could be just a belt and braces approach to a minimal description of the required works given to the electrician who did the installation.

As its the builder who was this electricians client, he has a duty to supply certificates to the client (the builder), however the end user should be supplied with copies or the originals dependant on the client.

Without indepth reports from a qualified electrician we are just guessing at what you can describe, the first thing you should be demanding, and are legally entitled to, is the installation certificate. When you have this document we will be more than happy to discuss anything you do not understand or are concerned about.

 

[nick777vvv]

I'm grateful for the comments thus far and certainly don't expect any absolute advice. As you rightly say, unless you have all the facts from a professional that has done a full evaluation, you can only really offer general guidance. However, that's really what I'm after at this stage. Not enough to specify the solution (I'm not competent to!) but enough to understand best practice in the circumstances I've described.

What I wanted to understand was whether I should be taking any action after I noticed that there was no mains bonding. If plastic negates the need then the issue goes away. The difficulty I have is that I'm not in a position to make that judgement call so wanted a little guidance...

To ProDave's point: prior to the extension the rising main and stopcock were exposed and properly bonded. This pipework was then removed and a plastic connection made below floor level. The stopcock is now some distance (a couple of metres away) from this point and adjoins the plastic piping.

Thanks all

Nick

 

[ProDave]

To ProDave's point: prior to the extension the rising main and stopcock were exposed and properly bonded. This pipework was then removed and a plastic connection made below floor level. The stopcock is now some distance (a couple of metres away) from this point and adjoins the plastic piping.Thanks all

Nick

So the old pipework WAS bonded.

If I was doing the job, I would have left that bond in place, and simply added the new plastic pipework.

Are you telling us the spark doing the work has removed the old bonding cable? If so I hope he made the appropriate measurements to determine if bonding was needed or not.

But it seems like he made work for himself. It would have been no work at all and no harm done to leave the old bonding cable in place.

 

[ADS]

.Make SURE you withhold a substantial part of the final payment until you have the completion certificate from building control, so that the builder / electrician have an incentive to complete the job including certification before you give them the final part of their fee.

I hope none of my future customers read this and take your advice........................a recent customer didn't receive their cert from the LABC until about 3 - 4 weeks after I notified............there's no way I'd be waiting until then for payment.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

So the old pipework WAS bonded.If I was doing the job, I would have left that bond in place, and simply added the new plastic pipework.

Are you telling us the spark doing the work has removed the old bonding cable? If so I hope he made the appropriate measurements to determine if bonding was needed or not.

But it seems like he made work for himself. It would have been no work at all and no harm done to leave the old bonding cable in place.

How could he when all the metal work was removed ?

 

[nick777vvv]

That's right: all the old pipework was removed. I was also told that the previous bonding cable had to go as it was 6mm and needed to be replaced with 10mm. The wire was replaced but never connected to anything...

 

[ProDave]

How could he when all the metal work was removed ?

No, not ALL the metal.

If I read it correctly, the old incoming feed and old stopcock was removed, but the bulk of the original copper pipework was left. Than what was left was extended in plastic to couple up to the new rising main.

So it would have been a VERY simple job to move the old bond to the end of what was left of the copper pipe.

The OP has already now clarified that the spark ran a new 10mm bond cable in, but then didn't bother to connect it anywhere which was a waste of time and cable.

 

[stan794]

I hope none of my future customers read this and take your advice........................a recent customer didn't receive their cert from the LABC until about 3 - 4 weeks after I notified............there's no way I'd be waiting until then for payment.

In my terms all payment is due at end of final fix - any of those shenanigans about withholding payment would lead to chairs being thrown about.

 

[Robin Spark]

In my terms all payment is due at end of final fix - any of those shenanigans about withholding payment would lead to chairs being thrown about.

Yes, but the jobs is not finished until the correct paperwork has been completed, therefore it should be a simple case of Nick777VVV asking either his builder or sparks whether this has been completed and he should then receive either a simple yes or no, or er stutter stutter stutter sorry I cant hear you mobile phone reception is bad disconnection tone

 

[stan794]

My paperwork is completed before i leave site thanks, hence payment required, custy will have agreed to these terms at the start, if they dont then find another spark.