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the wiring of every final circuit having a protective conductorcurrent likley to exceed 10mA must have high inegrity protective

conductor connections

complying with one or more of the following

(i)a single protective conductor having a cross-sectional area not less

than 10mm 543.2/543.3

(ii)

a single copper protective conductor having a csa not less than 4mm

the protective conductor being enclosed to provide additional protection against mechanical damage for example within a flexible conduit

(iii)

two individual protective conductors each complying with section 543

the ends being terminated independently

(iv)

earth monitoring or use of a double-wound transformer
Is there a guide to show what is likely to produce an excess of 10mA. If you dont have the specs for particular equip then how do you know? How much IT equip constitutes an excess of 10mA? Does a large house with a study and various domestic IT equip have an excess of 10mA?

 
Is there a guide to show what is likely to produce an excess of 10mA. If you dont have the specs for particular equip then how do you know? How much IT equip constitutes an excess of 10mA? Does a large house with a study and various domestic IT equip have an excess of 10mA?
PAT testing it will give a earth current leakage for each item. You just need to ask the company for their PAT records and then add it all up.

 
Mrs. KME is asking:"Do we put flowers there"?
She just explained the reasoning for that question......

She had a mental picture of everyone`s deleted messages, going down the earth to a "deleted message" graveyard somwhere......Applaud Smiley:^O:^O:^O

And just said, "When you undelete something, does that mean it`s been `unearthed`".

I`ll let you know when I stop laughing............

 
She just explained the reasoning for that question......She had a mental picture of everyone`s deleted messages, going down the earth to a "deleted message" graveyard somwhere......Applaud Smiley:^O:^O:^O

And just said, "When you undelete something, does that mean it`s been `unearthed`".

I`ll let you know when I stop laughing............
I thought it was sweet the computer deleting files and getting rid of them down the earth wire. :)

I disapointed it's not true. Now I want to know where these files go!

 
To the great "deleted" file in the sky (if they were good files!)
Ah - so they go out via me wireless internet. Makes so much sense. Was wondering how I could delete stuff when me laptop was on battery power..................

:D

 
Ah - so they go out via me wireless internet. Makes so much sense. Was wondering how I could delete stuff when me laptop was on battery power.................. :D
The hard bit with a laptop is undelete..

it has to find all those files floating around in the atmosphere around your home...

then rebuild them in the right order....

I you have had windy weather it can be very difficult to undelete! ;)

 
maybe something to do with getting power from the landline (80v as i recall when being rung up)which could put an imbalace down to earth somehow....just guessing.
Have we got any answers in?

4 across might help..........

I know 3 down is "imbecile"

7 across rings a bell - "small & insignificant"...

 
maybe something to do with getting power from the landline (80v as i recall when being rung up)which could put an imbalace down to earth somehow....just guessing.
erm NO..

phone lines do not need connecting to electrical earth for ring to work! :)

plus a phone may not even have any 230v supply to it!

 
IT equipment causing residual currents to flow in the earth wires is well known.

Dare I mention the two earth terminals in new 13a sockets, using them both somehow reduces residuals. I don't understand it either.

Deke

 
The idea of two earth terminals on circuits for IT equipment is so that if one becomes loose or disconnects there is still an earth connected, as you are supposed to connect them to two seperate terminals at the cu and if it is a radial circuit run an earth back so that there are two earths at the cu.

 
This place really makes me laugh at times :D

As has been stated, I.T equipment use mains filters/suppressors that are designed to leak current to earth (through capacitors/resistors) - Hence each piece of kit may "leak" a mA or two (hypothetically - varies depending on equipment) - Multiply by 50 or 100 units like in an office and you will exceed the trip rating of a 30mA RCD.

Most offices in the past weren't RCD'ed - but going forward there is a requirement to use one (cable protection in walls (unless under floor fed)) - hence office rings may need new smaller rings to prevent leakage currents being too high.

The use of twin earth terminals in 13A sockets does not reduce residuals - it is to comply with "high integrity CPC circuits" - its all in the name - "high integrity". Which means that the CPC is key to the circuit, even more than normal, hence you terminate the ring CPC into two separate terminals, incase one comes loose, or broken.

D.

 
wot are "High Integrity" consumer units all about? do they have extra earth terminal positions for the above or something

 
This place really makes me laugh at times :D As has been stated, I.T equipment use mains filters/suppressors that are designed to leak current to earth (through capacitors/resistors) - Hence each piece of kit may "leak" a mA or two (hypothetically - varies depending on equipment) - Multiply by 50 or 100 units like in an office and you will exceed the trip rating of a 30mA RCD.

Most offices in the past weren't RCD'ed - but going forward there is a requirement to use one (cable protection in walls (unless under floor fed)) - hence office rings may need new smaller rings to prevent leakage currents being too high.

The use of twin earth terminals in 13A sockets does not reduce residuals - it is to comply with "high integrity CPC circuits" - its all in the name - "high integrity". Which means that the CPC is key to the circuit, even more than normal, hence you terminate the ring CPC into two separate terminals, in case one comes loose, or broken.

D.
Indeed so DD. That is my understanding..

Additionally..

The equipment will still leak the amount of current whether 1 or 2 CPC connections.

Consider a classroom or large office say 35 screens & base units each screen & Base leaks 0.33ma, 35x2x0.33 =23ma+ you only need a few more bits plugged in or a bit of a surge or a sensitive RCD and you have a nuisance trip!

Someone one an earlier post said that a larger earth was required.. the regs say with a ring it is quite acceptable to use two connected cpc terminations of the same CSA.

If it was a radial.. an additional CPC back to thew CU is needed, because this is outside of another cable it can require additional mechanical protection.. thus it bigger!

Also there can be problems if the IT equipment doesn't have a good earth as its own power surge suppression, which smooths out the natural fluctuations in the mains supply, and may not work effectively! which is why it needs a High Integrity earth NOT a Clean Earth!

CLEAN EARTHS!

The concept of clean earths goes back to earlier days of telecommunications and data communications over traditional twisted pair telephone cables..

Because some data transmissions used signalling with reference to an earth point, e.g... between two factory sites.. or around large factories... (e.g. car plants etc..)

If the earth had a lot of noise, (induced voltages, due to factory plant etc..) this could cause errors on the data transmission. (we once had a 4pair twisted cable with 16v AC induced onto it, our RS485 line drivers were supposed to signal using 12v! :( :() Screening & tying down to a clean earth did the trick!

As transmission was at a slower rate with less fancy error correction, a good quality earth (clean earth) was often requested to maximise transmission reliability.

Hoverer this is less of an issue with faster communications, Co-Ax cables, more efficient error correction..... AND..... Fibre Optic transmisions..... light is NOT referenced to earth! :| ;)

(clean earths could on occasions cause more problems, due to earth pd between various site locations)

The other aspect of Earth's & IT, is surge protection to avoid any transient spikes from lightning induced voltages up the CPC damaging the IT equipment.

All interrelated but all different:-

Clean Earth... Signalling & Comms'

Surge Protection... lightning & noise

High Integritey... Ensure a path to allow leakage current to pass.

These I understand are what is know as Functional Earths, as compared to Protective Earths, although obviously the High integrity earth will perform both functional & protective.

thats my understanding of the issue anyway? ;) :^OGuiness Drink

 
wot are "High Integrity" consumer units all about? do they have extra earth terminal positions for the above or something
Due to requirement for RCD protection AND the need to reduce nuisance tripping..

the high integrity CU maintains the supply to more circuits in the event of a fault on one circuit.

Maintains supply by using more RCD's or RCBOs. ;)

Much like the High Integrity earth maintains the earth connection for equipment that utilises a Functional Earth. :)

{you need to go and buy your OSG Nicky! :) ;) }

 
Evening all,Well I have a customer that has a 7.5 tonne wagon with the rear end being a command centre thats stacked out with IT equipment (10 servers / 5 plasma + smart screens / sky / sat link + dish + server / 6 pc screens / 10 laptops + docking stations / cctv + recorder / 2x 16 port 3com hubs / 2x 3Kva ups / 1x 1.5Kva ups).

The unit does have an on board genny (50Kva limited to 20K at the moment) + battery bank with inverter that are on a split charge system, but when at its depot the wagon is plugged in to the mains via a landline (sy 4mm 3 core) to 32amp BS EN.60309-2 outlet that is rcd protected.

Yep the problem is the rcd trips when everything is fired up when on the landline, not to good when they are wanting to charge the ups/batteries.

The supply is TN-s but as this isn't strictly a distribution circuit & the outlet can be used by unskilled/supervised persons the rcd should stay, but the customer wants do do away with the rcd to stop the intermittent tripping when the IT kit is in use.

My idea is to install a lock off isolator with padlock on the circuit & label the circuit as a dedicated circuit for this vehicle only so only the crew of the vehicle can use the outlet & bin the rcd..........what do ya think.....or any other ideas are welcome.

need another beer Guiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness DrinkGuiness Drink
Back to your original point M107...

I think your last paragraph is probably OK.

Reg 411.3.3

which says RCDs required for socket upto 20a OR mobile equipment upto 32A for use outdoors. I don't think either falls within your category...

It also refers to 314.1(iv) And 531.2.4 selection of RCDs required to avoid unwanted tripping due to excessive CPC currents in normal operation.

:)

 
There are many new 17th dual rcd DBs but not all of them are called high integrity, its just the ones with dual rcd AND a position for a single rcbo.

Anyway has the need for extra earth terminals been addressed

Another thing, our firm have decided, that it is not a problem if we have to install a db on its side being that the Hager one is 19" wide and understairs cupboards are quite tight. Does anyone have a problem with this?

 
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