Installing equipment within electricity boards meter box

[zjtobo]

I have come across electricians installing Dis/Brd, metering unit within the electricity boards meter boxes, I always understood that this was a no no. Any constructive comments welcome.

 

[Sidewinder]

It is officially a no no, some DNO's will turn a blind eye others will not.

The cutout/meter board belongs to the DNO, you must legally have their written permission to mount anything on this officially.

 

[zjtobo]

Thanks for that info sidewinder. These lads are actually installing a 63A dp rcd unit with 16A breaker and using this as the isolation to the inverter in the loft. Lockable I suppose, but hardly conventional, BS 7671? grey area maybe!!!

 

[Sidewinder]

No grey area at all.

Meter board belongs to DNO.

You need their permission officially to mount anything on it.

End of.

Say if DNO come to replace main fuse due to some unforeseen incident they are legally entitled to refuse to work on the install until all unauthorised equipment is removed from the meter board.

Mounting inverters in the loft anyway is IMHO a dodgy area on many grounds including I believe, a point of statute law that could be turned around to prove that this is unacceptable.

 

[Hefferl]

No grey area at all.Meter board belongs to DNO.

You need their permission officially to mount anything on it.

End of.

Say if DNO come to replace main fuse due to some unforeseen incident they are legally entitled to refuse to work on the install until all unauthorised equipment is removed from the meter board.

Mounting inverters in the loft anyway is IMHO a dodgy area on many grounds including I believe, a point of statute law that could be turned around to prove that this is unacceptable.

This is interesting. I've read in a few places that inverters should not be installed in lofts - main reason cited being heat. But today on my C & G 2399 course we've been told that a loft install is preferable so as to keep the DC cabling to mimimum.

 

[zjtobo]

Hey Sidewinder, If that's the case then, A very high percentage of domestic installs will have to be re-positioned, wow!!

 

[steptoe]

No grey area at all.Meter board belongs to DNO.

You need their permission officially to mount anything on it.

End of.

Say if DNO come to replace main fuse due to some unforeseen incident they are legally entitled to refuse to work on the install until all unauthorised equipment is removed from the meter board.

Mounting inverters in the loft anyway is IMHO a dodgy area on many grounds including I believe, a point of statute law that could be turned around to prove that this is unacceptable.

I dont know about statue law,

but I do know about equipment being accessible,

and access to the emergency switching of the DC side is not adequate for a loft mounted install.

as for mounting stuff in the cabinet,

job I was at last week has the old wylex 3036 board in there, the whole shebang!!!

 

[Doc Hudson]

as for mounting stuff in the cabinet,job I was at last week has the old wylex 3036 board in there, the whole shebang!!!

It is not uncommon to see a whole CU mounted in a meter box, some as Steptoe says have been there for years as they are 3036 Wylex boards, probably installed when the property was built. Since the privatisation, chopping up and selling off of the old regional electrical boards, I am not sure many bother too much about what is inside the box.

Doc H.

 

[zjtobo]

Very interesting, many years ago I installed a henley block on the chipboard panel which housed the cutout and meter, got a roasting from the electricity board as it was their equipment, ever since then I have always been wary. My concern now is that with the advent of meter boxes on the outside of properties with meter and cutout, installing anything within them fills me with dread. So I don't do it.

 

[binky]

I do this all the time, it's a lot better than destroying peoples decor!!. In my experience if the box is broken / needs replacing, it belogs to the home owner, not DNO. I was recently involved with DNO is repositioning meter cupboard - according to the lads, one side is mine, one side is there's.

 

[Theorysparky]

only time i put anything in the dno box is a fused isolator because the tails are longer than 3m

they require it,,,,so where else am i going to put it !!!!!!

 

[Doc Hudson]

I do this all the time, it's a lot better than destroying peoples decor!!. In my experience if the box is broken / needs replacing, it belogs to the home owner, not DNO. I was recently involved with DNO is repositioning meter cupboard - according to the lads, one side is mine, one side is there's.

You are correct, the DNO will neither supply nor fit the meter box, they typically give a specification of minimum dimension enclosure they require to put their equipment in, but the enclosure belongs to the property owner and is their responsibility to maintain. Say if the door had been vandalised and damaged the DNO will do nothing as it is not actually their enclosure. Obviously there are different sized enclosures and meter equipment and cut-outs are in various sizes. If as Sidewinder said they come to do some routine upgrade or maintenance work and consider the required space is not available I suspect they would invoice for a wasted visit then instruct the property owner to make room in the enclosure then book another appointment for the original work. I doubt it would be worth anyones effort to undertake any legal proceedings over such an issue. I would be interested to hear if anyone has first hand experience of an actual case of DNO taking action regarding meter box space?

Doc H.

 

[wozz]

Steps and sides can you expand on your comments about positioning of inverters in lofts, just want to know your thoughts on the problems with this.

 

[Technician]

I did hear a while ago that Norweb do not permit tail length

to exceed 2 metres. Do I take it that DNO's can disregard the

3 metre rule if they choose to shorten it when ESQCR states

"as close as is reasonably practicable"?

 

[binky]

Steps and sides can you expand on your comments about positioning of inverters in lofts, just want to know your thoughts on the problems with this.

It's about heat dissipation, as anyone who has worked in a loft summer knows, it gets bloody hot up there, ergo when inverter is working hardest, it can't disspiapte heat effectively, and can shut down / becomes less efficient, and I beleive ultimately reduces inverter life. Now to counter that argument, installing additional ventilation may help air flow sufficiently for this not to be an issue, and on a roof with almost compete panel coverage the roof is effectively shaded. But either way having the ineverter is a cool well ventilated location such as garage / outside wall is ultimately going to be better.

With regards to DNO boxes, I meant to photograph the meter box I was working in today - it has nice litttle lines sectioning the back board into DNO and customer space. Sorry forgot to photograph that as I was bsy trying to complete job in the rain :_|

 

[Sidewinder]

Heat is one Binky, the other is Cadbury's Dairy Milk...

As Deke/Specs keep saying (I can't remember which one!!!)

AKA CDM!

Homework for one & all...

Inverters have loads of electrolytic capacitors in them, in general.

These are very temperature sensitive and their life span is reduced logarithmically with respect to temperature.

Also there is a lot of dust in attics, this can sit on components and "insulate" them thermally, and do other things...

How many roof's are completely shaded by the panels though!

p.s. let the side down today only 93.6% in 2399 GOLA!

 

[Doc Hudson]

Sorry forgot to photograph that as I was bsy trying to complete job in the rain :_|

Rain? you can get waterproof cameras you know and Admin does like photographs. Is this further indication that standards are slipping within our industry?

Doc H.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 23:28 ---------- Previous post was made at 23:16 ----------

Heat is one Binky, the other is Cadbury's Dairy Milk...As Deke/Specs keep saying (I can't remember which one!!!)

AKA CDM!

Homework for one & all...

Inverters have loads of electrolytic capacitors in them, in general.

These are very temperature sensitive and their life span is reduced logarithmically with respect to temperature.

Also there is a lot of dust in attics, this can sit on components and "insulate" them thermally, and do other things...

How many roof's are completely shaded by the panels though!

p.s. let the side down today only 93.6% in 2399 GOLA!

This will probably be one of those things where due to a combination of newness of the technology to this country, naivety of installers, urgency to get the jobs in, quite a few mistakes of implementation will be learned in a couple of years time after some of these poorly designed rush jobs have higher than average early failure rates and guess who will end up paying again to carry out remedial action?

Doc H.

 

[wozz]

Can you explain how CDM would effect this?

I would have thought a loft would have been within the working temp of a inverter. Indeed if I had paid for one I wouldn want it in a dusty loft and having it cooler would be better, but I wouldnt want it in my bedroom either!

 

[steptoe]

thing is,

the first few we done I was actuyally refusing to fit them in lofts,

then it came to a meeting with the MD one day and we decided that if customers were adamant they wanted them in the loft, so be it,

but, ever one we have done so far they have been informed about the effects of heat on them,

and I also put on my sheet about the none accessibility of the DC isolator for emergency switching.

at the end you can only do what the customer specifies, and I dont think Ive broke any laws by fitting them there,

but I await to be educated if I have.

 

[binky]

its not law Steps, just preferences. My background is High Integrity engineering (25 year service life stuff like aeroplanes) hence I like to avoid obvious potential problems. As Sidey says above, electrolytic capacitors are the weak link, and keeping them cooler improves their life span.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 07:29 ---------- Previous post was made at 07:27 ----------

Can you explain how CDM would effect this? I would have thought a loft would have been within the working temp of a inverter. Indeed if I had paid for one I wouldn want it in a dusty loft and having it cooler would be better, but I wouldnt want it in my bedroom either!

The inverter will cope, but performance degrades with heat and 40deg C is usually max recommended operating temp