Jo Cox MP

[OnOff]

I see Kinnock Jnr. is urging people to think about all this when they vote next week. From what I've read he was a personal friend of hers but I can't help thinking it will be used ref the whole Brexit thing. Initially because of her I believe Remain sidings I thought it would play to that but the more I think about it one could argue that if there were more resources spent on mental health in the UK rather than that money going on immigrant issues the guy may have got help etc.

 

[Essex1]

I think a 48 hour suspension is respectful. Also recalling parliament is to be expected. A sitting MP has been murdered. If any side uses this as an angle to get votes they will be finished. 

 

[apprentice87]

Essex is spot on with that..

john..

 

[apprentice87]

Hi all,

"I am am not in anyway saying that this guys behaviour is acceptable and he shouldn't of been stopped, merely saying that the use of mental illness is over used as an excuse"

and,

"I hope he gets tried for murder, none of this diminished responsibilty stuff because he was "mentally ill"

Hmm, yes, i can see where you are coming from, but how can you blame someone that is ill, knows it, and has tried to seek help but has been turned away?? Now, someone that is tripping on drugs, has obviously only themselves to blame for their behavior, but a genuinely ill person cannot help it.

I once witnessed [in hospital again] a very pretty, 14 year old dark haired girl, the sort you might see everyday [no i am not pervy, i was 14 myself at the time] suddenly freak out, and frantically try to defend herself against the non-existant attackers she obviously believed were attacking her. You have never seen anyone so frightened in your life, and it was an extremely disturbing thing to see. I still think about it 40 odd years later.....

There is mental illness, that everyone has from time to time [speak for yourself i here you all say!!] and then there is serious mental illness.... If the government has done away with the services and provision for such people, then what you think is going to happen??

Ok, i will put it in "physical" terms.. Say you went on holiday, and when you came back, believed you had contracted Ebola. Say you went to the hospital to get help but were told, "there is none, we are not interested, go away or we will have the police remove you"

Ok, so off you go, and then, oh dear, as it is highly contagious, there is an Ebola epidemic. Would you then be to blame?? Not your fault the hospital refused you entry, you did try, you thought you were ill and did your best...

john..

 

[ProDave]

We are all responsible for our own actions.

If your "state of mind" means you cannot control your actions, is living "in the community" the right thing?  In the old days you would have been in the lunatic asylum where you couldn't hurt anyone but yourself.

I argue that NO murderer is "of sane mind" as quite simply, people of sane mind don't go around deliberately killing each other.

 

[Sharpend]

The problem with mental illness is that it is all in the persons head and there is not a definitive way someone else can see the illness, however having had dealings with many so called mentally ill persons, you can if you listen to the words that they use in their speaking and talk about their past establish where the mental problem was first established. So society/medical profession call these people as suffering mental illness when really their mental state is a result of not dealing with problems at the time or when they are recognised as this isn't always the same time. I'm not proposing that there is a solution to ever mental illness, merely the fact that the terminology is used to commonly to cover a variety of conditions. 

 

[apprentice87]

Not really, serious mental illnesses do not have a trigger as such, they just "are" Same as lots of serious physical conditions do not have a trigger, they just happen..

There are of course mental illnesses that have a trigger, just the same as with physical illnesses..

john.

 

[Sharpend]

Yes John some mental illness are greater than a mental illness they're a physical deformation within the brain that causes mental issues, by mental I refer to the use of the mental tool called the mind. 

 

[apprentice87]

We are all responsible for our own actions

Hmmm, not if suffering from a serious mental illness, anymore than you could be blamed for crashing your car if you had a heart attack while driving..

If your "state of mind" means you cannot control your actions, is living "in the community" the right thing? NO, DEFINITELY NOT. BESIDES, COMMUNITY CARE IS ALL JUST A LIE TO JUSTIFY CUTTING PROVISION..

  In the old days you would have been in the lunatic asylum where you couldn't hurt anyone but yourself. EXACTLY 1000% SPOT ON..... BUT, remember, the government closed the hospitals....

I argue that NO murderer is "of sane mind" as quite simply, people of sane mind don't go around deliberately killing each other.  Having a tantrum because you cannot control yourself is not the same as being ill. Remember, psychotic people hear and see things and are convinced they are doing the correct thing in the circumstances..

So yes, people that are a danger to themselves or others should be in a secure unit, BUT they often present themselves and literally beg to be admitted. It is not their fault if the hospital has shut down or only has 5 beds and they are turned away.....

john..

 

[steptoe]

@apprentice87

You might get listened to and taken serious a bit more if you didn't try and turn every thread into your personal political soapbox to slag off the Tory party and get a vote for your terrorist loving labour party.

 

[apprentice87]

Hi Steps, that is fair enough, and i know that you see things from a rather different perspective, and i DO appreciate and VERY MUCH respect both your views and your viewpoint, but it WAS the tories that closed the hospitals, that is a matter of indisputable fact..

It all began under Enoch Powell in the early 1960's.. Google "water tower speech"

Here is a little extract..

"Now look and see what are the implications of these bold words. They imply nothing less than the elimination of by far the greater part of this country's mental hospitals as they exist today. This is a colossal undertaking, not so much in the new physical provision which it involves, as in the sheer inertia of mind and matter which it requires to be overcome. There they stand, isolated, majestic, imperious, brooded over by the gigantic water-tower and chimney combined, rising unmistakable and daunting out of the countryside - the asylums which our forefathers built with such immense solidity to express the notions of their day. Do not for a moment underestimate their powers of resistance to our assault."

[Enoch sure could make a good speech!!!]

Anyway, so when innocent people are killed by lunatics wandering the streets, you know who the architect of all this was....

A few cases..

Christopher Clunis, who killed Jonathan Zito on the platform of Finsbury Park tube station in north London in 1992

Wayne Hutchinson, who was released by mistake and killed two people and injured another three in 1994;

Stephen Laudat, who stabbed a stranger in 1994.

Anthony Smith, who stabbed his mother and 11-year-old half brother in 1995.

Gilbert Kopernik-Steckel, who twice discharged himself from hospital before stabbing his mother to death and then committing suicide in 1996

In 1994 the Royal College of Psychiatrists published figures showing that, in the three years previous to that, 34 people had killed someone within a year of being in contact with psychiatric services.

Says it all really....

john..

 

[Sharpend]

Don't go to a psychiatrist-it's bad for your health! 

 

[ProDave]

Loony Bin was the local term for such an establishment where I lived.

 

[kerching]

Present Wife used to,work in Psyche Unit. Every year at Christmass the Lead Consultant used to buy the staff a massive bag of Nuts!........just saying

 

[ProDave]

Present Wife used to,work in Psyche Unit. Every year at Christmass the Lead Consultant used to buy the staff a massive bag of Nuts!........just saying

Is that like the old joke about the bag of nuts the mum gave to her son every time he visited.  After a while he said "where do you get all these nuts from?" and her reply was "I only like the chocolate"

 

[binky]

@apprentice87

You might get listened to and taken serious a bit more if you didn't try and turn every thread into your personal political soapbox to slag off the Tory party and get a vote for your terrorist loving labour party.

You can't deny what the Tory party have done Steps, and somehow I don't see Jo Cox as a terrorist supporter.

In my opinion this thread should be edited to show a mark of respect to Jo Cox, and only respect to Jo Cox and her family. It should not be dragged off into politcal ramblings or discussions on mental health provision.

@Canoeboy @Apache @Admin 3 @Admin 5 @anyone else that can edit this thread, please do.

 

[Manator]

@binky @Canoeboy

I have read through the thread with the intention of splitting and if I can say cleaning. However from the very first post to the last the subject has not been about Jo Cox but more of how she was killed. If we are to believe that a mental health issue was a primary cause then political debate will unfortunately follow.

At the end of the day we must remember that she was a daughter, a sister, a wife and a mother. No person should be subjected to danger or harm in doing their job, or targeted because of the job they do.

 

[M107]

In the old days you would have been in the lunatic asylum where you couldn't hurt anyone but yourself.

The problem with nut houses/lunatic asylums/fruit & veg farm or as we knew our local one (park Prewett) the dribble house....was  that people such as my sister who is Down-syndrome were also chucked into the same pot but were in actual fact worse for being there & left to rot suffering in such places with dubious methods of care & treatment. 

Now My sister was lucky & came along (was adopted by my parents) post the closure of such places & with the input from the family has turned into a lovely young lady, albeit one who is 28 but still loves barbie.
 

Does she deserve to be in a secure site.....................I think not........ so yes although I agree that some obviously deranged individuals (just take a trip round Broadmoor hospital with show you) do need to be kept secure for their & others safety, lets hope society does not get carried away with shutting individuals out of sight just because they do not conform to what society wants.

Jo Cox.............very sad indeed she managed to travel the worlds hot spots delivering aid, but was killed in here home town by one individual who seems to have some issues. What ever your political view you should be thinking of the two young kids & husband she has left behind.