Just A Quick Question Regarding Local Building Control Notification

[RB2004]

Hi,

Just had a look on my local council website, and they charge £200 for notification, with inspection at first fix, before plastering etc so they can see cable routes which is fair enough. Then a 2nd visit for relevant testing.

But in the situation of a rewire... what if inside the wall there is round counduit downstairs and upstairs is drywall which is hollow behind the plasterboard... then no plastering or chasing is required.. just cable replacement.

Do they expect you to leave a whole house completely without electric with all the cables hanging out the walls and ceilings ready for termination before inspection?

Or can you replace all the cables in the walls, under the floors etc and terminate the circuits into accessories 1 circuit at a time so house is not left without electric and electrics in a safe condition.. just in that situation there would not be much to inspect? as it would all be under the floor or inside the original conduits that already existed inside the wall, or would you leave floors open for them to inspect? but that would pose a safety hazard?

So im not sure what there would be to inspect? could remove a couple of sockets off the wall and take cover off consumer unit to demonstrate a good level of neatness and correctly sized cables?

If walls were chased I could understand it, because they need to make sure cables are inside safe zones.. but if it is already conduit inside the wall then no chasing would of occured and cables would already be in safe zones if the conduit was vertical and horizontal.

would they accept it if you tested the circuits as you go along? so the house is not left without electrics? then you can install a circuit, test it before making it live then move onto next circuit... then present the test results at first fix inspection.

Thanks

 

[Andy™]

you would have to speak to LABC for clarification on that. each LABC probably have their own rules

and just because the conduit is already there doesnt mean that its in a safe zone

 

[Doc Hudson]

+1. need to speak to your LABC not the internet to answer this question. Building inspectors tend to have different levels of inspection they do with structural works depending upon how well the know the builder and his/her past history. I would imaging electrical work is much the same. If you have good past history with them then they may accept minimal checks. If not they may wish to dot every 'i' and cross every 't'. This is one of the very reasons that the self certification by approved scheme members was brought in. So competent electricians could just get on with their daily work with no hold ups.

Doc H.

 

[steptoe]

Ive done a couple of building controls in the past where the inspector has been out for a chat at the very beginning of the job, never to be seen again until after everything has been completed,

others where the inspector has been out every couple of days at least.

 

[RB2004]

you would have to speak to LABC for clarification on that. each LABC probably have their own rules

and just because the conduit is already there doesnt mean that its in a safe zone

Hi, already checked this, the previous person who "DIY re-wired" the house and made the electrics worse..which is why it needs re-wiring again to make it good again.. but they did do 1 thing right and that was to install round conduit to downstairs sockets and lighting switches before they decorated at some point in the past.

From what I could see and check these all appear to be only vertical from each plug point or lighting switch which would be fine by the regulations as anything vertical or horizontal from an accessory is considered a safe zone.

But currently electrics is in a bit of a mess, underneath the floorboards at the top of the stairs on the landing.. I counted a good 7 of those round, brown junction boxes in that area alone hidden underneath there... and when I investigated further it seems to be whats happened is the DIYer was too lazy or didnt want to spend on electrical cable so they cut the ring and then used the junction boxes and wired it up in a combination of Star and Ring.

Water and Gas mains have no equipotential bonding, undersized shower cable, dunno what they did in the kitchen but theres cables draped accross the back of the gas cooker with no support or protection.. literally just comes out of 1 cabinet then hangs freely before entering next cabinet every time they use some appliances as well all their electrics trip out.. not the appliance because they tested it in another house. so lots of hidden problems. No idea if related to their dodgy electrics also, as its not something I have ever seen before personally or experienced.. but they have also had a number of bulbs in the house just "explode" leaving the bayonet part behind.. they have asked me to remove them bits a few times now, glass completely gone, lol only bit left is the end.

Will speak to building control, ideally it would be great if they would come down for a prior chat, where I could explain whats going to be done like cable sizes, routes etc... allow me to take photos as progress goes along as evidence of doing the job properly then test myself each circuit upon completion.

then once finished, allow me to show all the evidence of how the work was done and test results then they can sent somebody to do their own tests to confirm and sign it off.

but normally no problems with my work, ive got copies of the relevent regulations, am willing to hire the test equipment and do it properly. unrelated but when I fitted some windows earlier on in the year the building control surveyor must of been happy with the job I did because he came down, and didnt really seem to scrutanise the job at all maybe because he could see it was all in order.. then just checked about 3 windows only out of 8 plus a front door and patio with a device to check for the low e glass, then signed it all off.. lol nice to know sometimes that you pay them £150 for this and after 5 minutes they are gone! and everythings signed off.

 

[ParkySparky]

Are you a sparky?

 

[RB2004]

Are you a sparky?

Why is that relevant to my question about notifying building control?

but regardless to the consequences of admitting it im going to be honest and no doubt it will mean I will face a number of posts stating how im incompetent and the usual stuff people say without really knowling my level of competency and knowledge but as it happens, im not a sparky, but at least I am willing to do electrics legally, pay to rent the test equipment.. do the proper tests before powering up circuits and get it signed off and tested by building control to ensure the job is done properly and to regulation whilst staying within the law with an issued certificate.

Lots of people who have a lower level of knowledge than I do, would just go ahead and do this without testing prior to powering up circuits, little or no knowledge about it, and no building control notification.

I do however have a genuine need and want to undertake tasks properly and within the law.. and I do not undertake tasks without adequately finding out the correct ways of doing it. I own a copy of the onsite guide, and latest revision of the 17th edition regulations, and I will be renting the test equipment to do the relevant tests.

But even though im not a sparky, I know that not only is it against the regulations to have inaccessible junction boxes.. unless they are marked with the MF logo, but I know some sparkys still frown upon using them still... also i know that it is not normal either to have 7 of these junction boxes shoved under a floor stuffed full of wires in a mixed star and ring formation.

I also know that the GAS and Water should be equipotentially bonded back to the MET.. so the fact that has not been done is another breach of regulation.

But there is no way I can make the electrics any worse than they are now.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Why is that relevant to my question about notifying building control?

Because there are three levels of certification for notifiable works..

1) Electrician registered with scheme able to self certify..

2) Electrician not a member of scheme but qualified to complete BS7671 certificates..

3) Where installers are not qualified to complete BS7671 certificates... (DIY)

Building controls will typically have different procedures and costs for types 2 & 3!

That is why it is perfectly relevant to ask the question....

"are you a spark"

But as is often the case...

a person lacking knowledge asking for help..

somehow thinks they know more than the persons they are asking help off..

and start resenting further questions in order that the best advice can be given..... :C

I sometimes wonder why people come and ask on forums....

If they dont want to hear advice?? :shakehead

P.S. Thats in Approved document P page 11..

NOT in on site guide or BS7671...

Are you also purchasing the relevant guidance notes as well..

or only using two out of a selection of relevant books electricians refer to?

Remember, partial information can be a dangerous thing..

 

[RB2004]

Hi thanks for explaining why the question

I don't claim to know more than the people I'm asking questions from and always happy to learn and not resent further questions.

The reason for my reply was because although considered a DIYer I have a little more knowledge than most DIYers, my work is to a consistent high standard and I do follow relevant rules and regulations to do things properly and legally.

But I have had before and seen many times on another electrical forum people being quickly shot down as incompetent and not knowing what they are doing so I was trying to explain otherwise before somebody started to say that about me here in this context.

I do have a copy of part p and also I think I have the guidance notes if not then I will purchase a copy

I have a few books, including a guide to part p book

 

[RB2004]

If you notify to the council, as qualified.. but not part of a scheme.

is it a stupid question to ask... but do they ask to see your certificates?

or do you just send them the test results and thats the end of it?

 

[Manator]

You will have to take your certificates into building control, they will photo copy them and put you on their register. Even members of schemes can do this because the building control will often contact you with any updates.

 

[RB2004]

Thanks, don't have certificates anyway, was just wondering how they verify or if they verify lol

That's why I'm going down the notification route, just having trouble getting answers out of them.

Haven't notified a rewire before,

Like building control was clueless and couldn't even tell me if I was required to move sockets and switches to comply with current building regulations on height and accesibility...they are supposed to be enforcing the building regs and can't even tell me what I'm supposed to be following!

Nor could they tell me what they want inspected at first fix if no plaster chases are made, or even at what point I'm supposed to call them to get the first fix inspection done... Completely useless.. Person I spoke to didnt even know they had a contract with morisons for inspections and testing.. Said to me that contract had expired with the previous company and they didnt have one. In the end he gave me the number of the previous contract company who didnt really wanna help much because they was not under contract, they was the ones who told me morisons took their contract.

So on that basis I'm inclined to just file the building control notice, do the work to current standards.. Leave floorboards loose connect everything up as normal.. Do my own tests to verify its safe before powering up then call them out, and they can do whatever inspection and testing they want, not much to inspect though as it will all be in loft space or under floorboard (which I will leave loose) unless I'm required to move sockets no chases will be made.. But even then the walls are drywall so still won't require chases.

 

[Manator]

If you do not have any certificates then you will never get registration onto any of the schemes. If and only IF you are here to gain advise and progress I and others of this forum can and will give you the right advise.

 

[RB2004]

Hi, I was not presently going to join a scheme, it was just advise I required on notifying part p work to building control.

Next year is when I was hoping if I have the money to gain some qualifications and join elecsa, as I only do the odd job here and there usually. Then I can also use this job as an assessment job, if I join within 12 months?

 

[steptoe]

RB , as regards the 'are you a sparky' question, I wondered the same myself,

now you have told the situation it becomes clearer,

the point is that any Spark at all would know what parts of the building regs are statutory for a re-wire, eg, switch/socket heights etc,

fair play to you for being truthful, you will actually find you will get more straightforward and honest helpful answers now, rather than pretend you are a spark and get shot down for asking supposedly basic Qs any spark should know,

there is now a useful section in your profile to fill in that will list your training and skills under your name, this is so people know how to respond to Qs without the need to ask 'are you a sparky'

 

[RB2004]

Hi,

in regards to which building control regulations definitely apply, Ive got so far

Fire Safety - Part B - minimum 1 fire detector per floor, and things like breaching ceilings or walls in such a way that would allow the passage of fire / smoke. That should be covered by my plan, 1 optical detector at top of stairs, 1 optical in hallway downstairs... but due to low fire risk in those areas going to add a heat detector in kitchen and dual sensor (optical and heat) in the living room as thats a likely fire risk due to electrical products in there.

.

Structure - Part A - depth of chases not to be more than 1/3 of the thickness of the wall, and that there are rules regarding drilling joists and notching so that you arent weaking that joist structurally.

Resistance to passege of sound - Part E - mostly its ventilators and downlighters in ceilings which concern that... dont think apart from ventilator this will be too much of a problem, I also normally use intumescent sealant anywhere I breach a ceiling anyway.. so that covers fire and sound.

Conservation of Fuel and Power - Part L - That mainly concerns the installation of 75% of house having energy efficient lightbulbs, going to swap all for energy bulbs.

All of those things, I will be complying with anyway, and I know they are statuatary requirements, even says that in the part p document

"Other Parts of schedule 1 of the building regulations contain requirements effecting electrical installations"

But the above ones arent really too much of a problem to comply with whilst going along

so I do go through the approved building documents on requirements, and have an idea of what im supposed to be doing and not doing and do try to do these things legally and properly just the same as an electrician would.. instead of a typical DIYer who cuts corners here and there..like ive seen people using cooker cable for outdoor garage runs which I find shocking but they just think its funny, because its cheaper than armoured cable... but its because of those DIY efforts that the house probably needs a rewire... I have found choc blocks taped up all over the house, found cable loosely hanging accross the gap between kitchen units with no support or protection behind a gas cooker... found a handfull of junction boxes hidden under a floor... and other day I turned off shower MCB and it took out half the upstairs sockets with it... so felt best way to put it right is to rewire.. I think some of the junction boxes are posing a problem as well because sometimes when lots of appliances are on the MCB for downstairs sockets trips out which isnt right.. so clear problems.

but im certainly not aiming to pretend im a sparky, I have nothing to hide and know I have a little more competency than most and consider myself capable.

Just wasnt sure on Part M - Access to and use of buildings, I will be fitting consumer unit in accordance with the requirements, and any new sockets.. but I didnt know if it was expected to move every single socket and switch? guess it is a silly question seeming the rest of the requirements are statutary... but the others dont involve damaging walls.. and know that some requirements are limited to new build situations or full refurbishments where those kind of changes are practical. But I know the heights if i can remember are within 450mm to 1200mm so will be mounting anything new like consumer unit at a max of 1200mm, and new sockets at 450mm... just was not sure if I also had to move every other light switch and socket in the house.

Im also going to comply with Part F, while as far as I know its not a requirement when rewiring and more for bathroom / shower room refits.. because it is notifiable also I thought best to shove that in, then when the bathroom is refurbished in future its already done and signed off and no need to do anything else to electrics.

also going to add Part J compliance by adding a carbon monoxide detector on same circuit as smoke alarms (so all interlinked) on the landing near the boiler, and another in the kitchen by the gas cooker (oven and hob both gas) as those should of been fitted during installation or replacement of a gas appliance...so should be complying with all the relevant regulations.

Thanks for the info regarding my profile will have a look