modern living

[phil d]

On the radio yesterday they were discussing air pollution and how they are thinking of creating 500 mtr exclusion zones around schools, because, 'children have the right to attend school without breathing in the pollution', well good luck with that, most schools near me are built alongside roads. How about making kids walk to school? That would be a novel idea, most kids seem to get dropped off even if they only live a short distance away, my son lives in a cul-de-sac that backs onto a primary school, it's like a giant chaotic car park at the beginning and end of the school day as cars arrive to collect kids.

Back in my day we walked everywhere, to school to the shops, to the park, to our mates houses, now they get dropped off. I remember once, I was about 14 iirc and it was a really bad winter, snow everywhere, I lived 3 miles from school and used to get a bus, if the weather was nice a few of us would walk and spend the bus fare on sweets. Anyway one particularly snowy morning and no bus arrived, great, a day off, so about half a dozen of us went home, the following day in school I got pulled up by one of the teachers, "where were you yesterday?" he asked, " bus didn't turn up sir, must've been the snow" I replied, he gave me an annoyed look, "what's wrong with your legs lad, couldn't you walk it to school, it's only 3 miles". Blimey, can you imagine that today, expecting a kid to walk 3 miles in fairly deep snow, there'd be an outrage.

I look back at my time in school and think, did we have it too hard, or do modern kids have it too easy? Personally I think we didn't have it as easy as modern kids, but it wasn't that hard either, it was sort of character building. They don't do half the things in school now that we did, my Grandson started 'big' school in September, they don't do woodwork or metalwork, they do something called 'craft design technology' , "will we be using saws and stuff"? he asked the teacher, "oh no, they're far too dangerous" he replied.

Back in my day we used lathes, pillar drills, bench grinders, I even learned to gas weld at school ! We had an old bloke teaching us metalwork, Mr Jack Ashton, or Jack Rivet, as he was affectionately known to the lads, he was brilliant. He'd have the idiots sawing lumps of metal with blunt hacksaw blades, that kept them quiet and anyone who wanted to learn, well he'd teach you, he'd even let you bring 'jobs' in from home instead of making the little things that you were supposed to make, he even showed one lad how to rebore a bike engine. He had a small  storeroom with all kinds of tools in it, if you were interested you got decent tools if you were just going to mess about you got the old stuff, he was well past retirement when he left.

He had actually built his own house down the road from where I lived, we used to stop and chat if we saw him in the garden and he'd bring out glasses of pop for us, he was a really nice bloke, that was 40 years ago, I drove past his house last week, someone else lives there now. I suppose he must have died many years ago, he'd probably be about 110 years old by now, all my teachers were old, they'll all be long gone now, but by and large they were a decent bunch, they taught me well. Sadly I don't think modern teachers, or teaching methods are like they were back then, true, we had corporal punishment, but we also learned values like honesty and truthfulness, and to take responsibility for our actions, sadly these values seem lost on a lot of our modern kids.

 

[Evans Electric]

We do live in a vastly different world ,  my parents did the  "Back in my day " thing   & now I do it .   

I'm pretty sure my dad left school  at age 12  .  I left at 15 , now kids never seem to leave at all. !  

I know we all walked  or used the bus to school  & at 13 we were allowed to cycle there.    No one was delivered by car  as no one actually owned one .         I'm also remembering  that most of the kids in class had part time jobs ,  delivering  grocery  on a bike with a metal basket fitted front & back  was a popular job .   Others helped the milkman or the breadman  delivering.  

I did a paper round  morning & evening  & cleaned cars on a car sales pitch  on Saturdays.    

We too had metalwork & woodwork  ,  metalwork was a favourite,    and  like phil , we had great teacher  called Broncho Lane .     Hammering , banging , hacksawing , drilling ., grinding ..OMG!!!    Its a wonder we made it out of there with a complete set of fingers. !!!

Junior nor senior school  was ever closed due to snow  ...and  it really used to dump then ,  not yer  one day wonders ... yer light dusting of snowflakes  we get now ...this was real  tough guy's  snow  ,  and everyone trudged to work and school  & trudged back home again .

I'm reminded of the father in law who worked on the railways during the war  so wasn't called up ,   they lived by a big ammunitions factory in Birmingham  that  the Germans tried to bomb  every night  .  Bomb craters would stop the buses running  so he & others would walk from Villa Park to New St   for their shift , in pitch darkness , waves of bombers overhead , roads blocked by craters   etc  etc .        

These days  , a fluttering of snowflakes and no one leaves home .      

Yesss  !!!  What we need   today is kids walking to school in pitch darkness in 4 ft  snow drifts  with the Luftwaffe  dropping bombs on them  ..  and doing metalwork when they get there..........that'll man 'em up !! 

 

[Rob.]

In some aspects they have it easier and others far worse. 

Main example % cost of a house compared to wages. From I bought a  house in 1990 it's increased in value by 135% almost. My wages certainly haven't, even with multiple promotions to senior roles, let alone what the electricians in the quarry are still on.

My father for example could support our family, my mother not working and a 3 bed house in a nice area, (We were only just above the breadline) as a  truck mechanic. This would be impossible just to support himself if the same situation was around now. 

Jobs now always expecting the employee to be at the end of a device to answer calls and emails. (One I know I fall into, I don't switch off from work). The constant bombardment of information, an having to be extra careful to be PC, or social media would crucify a career on even the slightest of accusation. 

 

[ProDave]

In some aspects they have it easier and others far worse. 

Main example % cost of a house compared to wages. From I bought a  house in 1990 it's increased in value by 135% almost. My wages certainly haven't, even with multiple promotions to senior roles, let alone what the electricians in the quarry are still on.

My father for example could support our family, my mother not working and a 3 bed house in a nice area, (We were only just above the breadline) as a  truck mechanic. This would be impossible just to support himself if the same situation was around now. 

Jobs now always expecting the employee to be at the end of a device to answer calls and emails. (One I know I fall into, I don't switch off from work). The constant bombardment of information, an having to be extra careful to be PC, or social media would crucify a career on even the slightest of accusation. 

I don't buy that "can't afford to buy now" argument.

I bought my first house for £36K in 1986, literally the cheapest house on sale in Oxfordshire at the time.  I could only borrow £31K even taking into account a pay rise due in a few months. The rest I had to scrape together by selling everything I could including a half decent car to be replaced by a rusting old banger.  today they call that a "deposit" that amounted to nearly 20%

My mortgage repayments were half my take home pay at about £500, and went UP wen interest rates briefly hit 15%.  For the first year I could not afford anything other than food and fuel, even then food was basic.  It was 6 months before I could even afford to get a landline connected. 

It was not long ago that I looked up what that very same house was worth now. £175K.  If you had a similar percentage deposit you would have about £25K and would need to borrow about £150K.  Now get this, the repayment on a £150K mortgage now would be about £800 per month.

So while that house may be worth many times what it was then, and you can expect wages to be many times what they were then, the repayments would be LESS THAN TWICE what I had to pay.,

So please don't tell me how hard it is now.

 

[Tony S]

One of my bugbears is H&S sticking its nose in to education. Our school had metal and woodwork shops, physics, chemistry, biology labs and my favourite technical drawing room. Concentrate acid and alkali? we would dilute our own.

My son thirty years later wasn’t allowed to use most of the things we took for granted.

Engineering college? I asked if he’d been in the power lab. “Nobody is allowed in there it’s a death trap.” I don’t recall any of the lads on our course being killed.

If and when these kids get in to any meaningful employment they don’t have the basic skills.

 

[Rob.]

I don't buy that "can't afford to buy now" argument.

So please don't tell me how hard it is now.

So you're saying that most youngsters now are earning the equivelent of £1000 after tax in 1986? Which according to the UK Gov equates to a current spending power of 2780 after tax per month. 

 

[Sharpend]

I think the point Dave is trying to make is that back then we knew how to budget and sacrifice whereas today we live in a society which expects the best of everything immediately (like it’s owed to them) and budget is something they hear about from the government once a year. 

 

[Rob.]

I think the point Dave is trying to make is that back then we knew how to budget and sacrifice whereas today we live in a society which expects the best of everything immediately (like it’s owed to them) and budget is something they hear about from the government once a year. 

I agree with this too, but it isnt all of the young ones. I know a lot of really hard working guys that struggle. An they're on 23-27k jobs.

We've as society (older generation) have braught up these young ones though, so who's to blame for it all really?

 

[Sharpend]

In a word Thatcher 

 

[Murdoch]

My son started work last year ........... apart from the £200 per month he gives us for "keep" and £200, also to us, for his car loan, he has the rest of his income (after allowing about £100 for petrol) for himself .............. he's doing a remarkable job of spending it all every month.......... he just scrapped enough together to pay for the service and MOT and his insurance is due on the first of July

On Thursdays he goes to London Uni ..... his employer pays for the train ticket .......... and he pays £9.40 to park at the station ............. his bike (its less than 2 miles) is collecting dust in the garage and he frequently goes out to lunch in town too

He has far more disposable income than I had at his age.............. yet he feels hard done by ........ 

In Surrey around here its £200K for a 1 bedroom flat and even if he had 20% deposit, he would still need to borrow 10 x his income

In a word Thatcher and Blair

corrected that for you

 

[binky]

@Sharpend @Murdoch correct that for you both, every government for the last few decades, all of whom have ignored manufacturing in favour of services that was going to make us all rich!!!  S'funny, I can't afford a sea-side house in my own area, but lots of Londoners can as a holiday home...

as for the kids of today, only their parents can be blamed for how they turned out. My son certainly knows how to budget, knows what it is to work to earn money, still wants the best and easy life, but then don't we all! Work seems to have become a dirty word, mind you, if I had to work in a call centre I would probably feel the same  :^O

 

[Sharpend]

It’s interesting that you say - only the parents can be blamed for the kids- I would totally disagree with you. Education/society has taught kids to have their own mind, I’m sure any parent who sees their child going down a wrong path would do what they can to correct it, but the child, young adult will rebel their parents advice in favour of what is seen as right by their peers. Of course we are not associating this to younger children but those of teenage years. This has been happening since the sixties, gradually getting worse in actions and will not stop until there is a major change in thinking. 

 

[binky]

teenagers have always rebelled, at least a bit, but parents are still the biggest influence on their children, and it certainly isn't schools that teach kids to be princes and princesses, or to understand boundaries at a young age, or the magic word 'NO'.  Todays kids are under enormous pressure to get exams, and then take on huge debts to gain higher education. I actually think todays kids are better  behaved than we were at the same age.  My son doesn't drink very much, sat 12 O levels, and 4 A levels, an enormous amount of work. He's finding university challenging but easier than being at school, he's also learning that our advice has been mostly good for him (sometimes years after  being told  :^O ).

What really bugs me is the number of parents who just don't value education - ever noticed how many Asian and Chinese faces are appearing in high places? Both communities that value education and hard work, yet the black community continues to whinge about everyone being racist against them, and likewise the working class whites who moan everyone else is getting the best jobs... It's not rocket science to work out why.

 

[Evans Electric]

What really bugs me is the number of parents who just don't value education - ever noticed how many Asian and Chinese faces are appearing in high places? Both communities that value education and hard work, yet the black community continues to whinge about everyone being racist against them, and likewise the working class whites who moan everyone else is getting the best jobs... It's not rocket science to work out why.

That is one of the  major changes in society  today .  Much like those Jewish family stereotypes  , often in comedy ,  where the sons are always growing up to be Doctors , Lawyers , Barristers   , surgeons , businessmen  ,  solicitors  , bankers , investors etc .       Upper class Asian families   are similar .    

Back in the '60s say ,   many a working class  factory worker could have  got out & bought that corner shop & even built up a small empire ....but he didn't because somehow it was beyond his reach ,  out of his remit ... he had no understanding of buy wholesale  ..sell retail  ...he'd been brainwashed  into being factory fodder .   

None of those professions would have entered the heads of anyone I grew up with , because of the  class & cultural differences .    Everyone I left school with  became , engineers , toolmakers , draughtsmen , electricians , mechanics , motor rewinders  ,  and to a lesser degree ,   a well known heavy metal band singer ,  and a couple of small time post office raiders .

Then you have say ,  Jack Cohen,  Jewish guy who , in 1919  bought some army surplus food  , took a market stall ,   turned over £4  in a day ,made £1 profit  & founded Tesco  , the biggest employer in Britain today .   :C   

Lets face it ,  any electrician could have become  a solicitor / lawyer  & eventually  , barrister , all that lot entails is  memorizing a load of Regs  and effecting a posh accent .  

But I never heard of a sparks re-train as a solicitor .      Too bloody boring I suppose .         

 

[Blue Duck]

Wrong thread. Sorry.

 

[binky]

That is one of the  major changes in society  today .  Much like those Jewish family stereotypes  , often in comedy ,  where the sons are always growing up to be Doctors , Lawyers , Barristers   , surgeons , businessmen  ,  solicitors  , bankers , investors etc .       Upper class Asian families   are similar .    

Back in the '60s say ,   many a working class  factory worker could have  got out & bought that corner shop & even built up a small empire ....but he didn't because somehow it was beyond his reach ,  out of his remit ... he had no understanding of buy wholesale  ..sell retail  ...he'd been brainwashed  into being factory fodder .   

None of those professions would have entered the heads of anyone I grew up with , because of the  class & cultural differences .    Everyone I left school with  became , engineers , toolmakers , draughtsmen , electricians , mechanics , motor rewinders  ,  and to a lesser degree ,   a well known heavy metal band singer ,  and a couple of small time post office raiders .

Then you have say ,  Jack Cohen,  Jewish guy who , in 1919  bought some army surplus food  , took a market stall ,   turned over £4  in a day ,made £1 profit  & founded Tesco  , the biggest employer in Britain today .   :C   

Lets face it ,  any electrician could have become  a solicitor / lawyer  & eventually  , barrister , all that lot entails is  memorizing a load of Regs  and effecting a posh accent .  

But I never heard of a sparks re-train as a solicitor .      Too bloody boring I suppose .         

factory fodder was easy work and good money.

oddly enough my wife would have loved to become a barristor, she trained as a Social Worker and has had a lot to do with the legal profession, but by the time she worked out the Barristor bit, it was a bit late.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

I don't buy that "can't afford to buy now" argument.

I bought my first house for £36K in 1986, literally the cheapest house on sale in Oxfordshire at the time.  I could only borrow £31K even taking into account a pay rise due in a few months. The rest I had to scrape together by selling everything I could including a half decent car to be replaced by a rusting old banger.  today they call that a "deposit" that amounted to nearly 20%

My mortgage repayments were half my take home pay at about £500, and went UP wen interest rates briefly hit 15%.  For the first year I could not afford anything other than food and fuel, even then food was basic.  It was 6 months before I could even afford to get a landline connected. 

It was not long ago that I looked up what that very same house was worth now. £175K.  If you had a similar percentage deposit you would have about £25K and would need to borrow about £150K.  Now get this, the repayment on a £150K mortgage now would be about £800 per month.

So while that house may be worth many times what it was then, and you can expect wages to be many times what they were then, the repayments would be LESS THAN TWICE what I had to pay.,

So please don't tell me how hard it is now.

Reality suggests different to your calculations….

:C

 

[Sharpend]

I’m not sure it’s hard for them now, 5% deposit on first time buyers, mortgages spread over a longer period to reduce annual costs, the bank of mum and dad too readily too hand. Cars they can rent per month, I’m currently working in London and all I see is the twenty somethings driving new (within 1-3 years old) Mercedes, BMW’s, range rovers, Porsche’s, etc, I don’t ever remember being in that position in my 20’s? So whose paying for all these expensive motors, certainly not your average shop worker, maybe your average drug dealer or crim? 

The balance is totally wrong imo, what are these kids actually learning? 

 

[Evans Electric]

I’m not sure it’s hard for them now, 5% deposit on first time buyers, mortgages spread over a longer period to reduce annual costs, the bank of mum and dad too readily too hand. Cars they can rent per month, I’m currently working in London and all I see is the twenty somethings driving new (within 1-3 years old) Mercedes, BMW’s, range rovers, Porsche’s, etc, I don’t ever remember being in that position in my 20’s? So whose paying for all these expensive motors, certainly not your average shop worker, maybe your average drug dealer or crim? 

The balance is totally wrong imo, what are these kids actually learning? 

I see it too  ,    I have always carried with me  a comment by an old sparks  ,  " Theres too many people  driving  around in BMW's  on Ford Escort wages "    

A mate of mine , drawing his pension  ,  just bought a Quashqai   for around £ 20,000   ,  to me thats a lorra dough for a motorized box on wheels ,  unless money is  of no object to you  . 

 

[ProDave]

I am firmly into "bangernomics"

My last £3000 car lasted me 9 years, then I sold it for £500 still with 10 months MOT.   I am 2 years into my present £3000 "banger"  If I had been stupid enough to spend over £200 per month to rent a car, I would have spent well over £4K in that 2 years.