NICEIC Versus Other Sheme Providers

[green-hornet]

I have read with interest all the posts on varioius schem providers and would like however unpopular to air some views.

On assesment the NICEIC will visit all required properties.

If for domestic they will visit 2 sites. For approved they will visit 5.

They will not foregoe a visit if the first visit is (OK).

They will insist on more than one test be caried out, at any location.

I have heard on this forum that some providers will ask for only one test to be carried out.

Every assesment I have ever had has been to at least two properties, each assesment has required me to do such testing as R1+R2,Zs, Ze and if applicable earth rod testing, along with rcd times and PFC etc.

All questions have been designed to put the candidate on the spot and if tested show competance that they can find the answer under the printed regulations.

I may be very wrong but some providers appear to be very relaxed as to the assesment procedure, and maybe some government authorities have picked up on this and maybe thats why they insist on NICEIC approved electricians only.

I know I am now going to get some major reactions from this post, however when anyone asks why one provider over another I will always reccomend the NICEIC because they do a full assesment.

I have seen may posts on this forum where other providers have only visited one site so I would need a load of convincing that that is acceptable.

Feel free to object to this post, the views expressed are my own and I never take anything personal.

You never know I may convert.

On a serious note I would like an intelligent debate on this subject, let me know your personal views, your experiance of the assesment procedure, what shortfalls you have noticed, where do you think the assesment procedure could be improved.

Lastly I respect all parties involved in self assesment.

I just want to open a can of worms on a public forum so feel free to comment.

Just remember this is a friendly forum and any personal abuse to any poster would be dealt with by the moderators.

 

[batty]

My views on NICEIC are that they make the regs up add bits in that are not needed and make a lot of work for sparks. I am probably wrong usually am but thats my opinion.

Batty

 

[wozz]

my first asessment i would say was in depth, many questions regarding regs were asked and building regs. the on site part was also in depth all tests carried out, including R1+R2 on rings.

As i have said only one was asked for on the second assesment. If more would have been asked for i would have struggled mainly because of my organsiation but also because alot of my work is carried out in rented properties and access would have had to have been sorted out through three parties concerned. Its difficult enough dealing with those parties at the best of times.

The job we visited i was asked all sorts of questions regarding the regs. Although i can see GH point, i cannot see that visiting two jobs would have proved my competance further, after all i could do two, five, ten jobs in a year and make them avaliable for visiting and do ninety jobs that are a complete bodge and in a dangerous condition and not have them avaliable for visiting.

Im not saying i have a better answer to this, but as i see it competance is about knowing your job and putting it into practice, as ive said the putting it into practice part can be hard to prove for many reasons, but answering questions on regs and providing solutions to probelms written or verbally is not so easy to fake (for want of a better word). I am not saying this is how it should be though.

sorry if spelling is bad i have been drinking quite a while now. i will add a bit more when sober

 

[Blue Fox]

Hornet, please don't take offence at this post but personally I think the quality of the assesment is almost irrelevant. I say this because no matter who you go with you beleive you quality of work is up to scratch and if you are lacking in some knowledge you are willing to learn and will probably err on the cautious side and ask questions on here becasue you are trying to do it the right way. The problem is the people who don't register and have no intention of doing so because they don't give a to$$. Everytime I go to a customer I talk to them about part p and the reply I get 99% of the time is part what, elecs or nicwho, followed by oh I get a certificate and building regs - really!! and the couple of jobs I have been to where a cowboy job has been done its followed by oh no we didn't ask about any of that and no wwe don't have his number we only had a mobile. This is what we should be trying to sort out not squabbling amongst ourselves about whos scam provider is bigger. In my opinion all the scam providers should club together along with the "government ha ha" well whats left of it and run an ad campaign on tv or something to get rid of the cowboys. That to me is more important. I'll now duck down in my whole to let the shells and bullits fly over my head!

 

[green-hornet]

Hornet, please don't take offence at this post but personally I think the quality of the assesment is almost irrelevant. I say this because no matter who you go with you beleive you quality of work is up to scratch and if you are lacking in some knowledge you are willing to learn and will probably err on the cautious side and ask questions on here becasue you are trying to do it the right way. The problem is the people who don't register and have no intention of doing so because they don't give a to$$. Everytime I go to a customer I talk to them about part p and the reply I get 99% of the time is part what, elecs or nicwho, followed by oh I get a certificate and building regs - really!! and the couple of jobs I have been to where a cowboy job has been done its followed by oh no we didn't ask about any of that and no wwe don't have his number we only had a mobile. This is what we should be trying to sort out not squabbling amongst ourselves about whos scam provider is bigger. In my opinion all the scam providers should club together along with the "government ha ha" well whats left of it and run an ad campaign on tv or something to get rid of the cowboys. That to me is more important. I'll now duck down in my whole to let the shells and bullits fly over my head!

I agree with everything you have said, it is not my intention to quarrel who are right or wrong, I have been very disheartened with the NICEIC for the lack of input they have shown to get part p an household name like corgi.

The reason for my post is to ask for all members of other schemes to ley me have their experiances of assesments and if there are any shortfalls in the procedure.

Your comments I am sure will dispell the myth that the NICEIC are in any way better than any other provider, and may show in some respects are in fact worse than some.

Another note you may all want to hear about is the fact that the NICEIC have asked government to relax the red tape to do away with a yearly assesment providing the installer has met some other criteria.

 

[wozz]

And its getting worse i think, NICEIC are sticking their name to training centres knocking out electricians in a week, Part P course and all that crap.

If i was a respected NICEIC approved contractor driving around, proud of the logo on my van a few years ago, i dont think i would be so proud now with the logo all over the websites of these training centres.

 

[batty]

I agree with everything you have said, it is not my intention to quarrel who are right or wrong, I have been very disheartened with the NICEIC for the lack of input they have shown to get part p an household name like corgi.The reason for my post is to ask for all members of other schemes to ley me have their experiances of assesments and if there are any shortfalls in the procedure.

Your comments I am sure will dispell the myth that the NICEIC are in any way better than any other provider, and may show in some respects are in fact worse than some.

Another note you may all want to hear about is the fact that the NICEIC have asked government to relax the red tape to do away with a yearly assesment providing the installer has met some other criteria.

Gh with my first assement with British Standards I had to show a first fix and two second fixes. They had to be whole installations and not a consumer unit change or the like. I have been registered since part p started. I am also registered to do commercial work so had to show a commercial job. If we are registered we get a kitemark to show the work we do is to British standards. I think the problem with NICEIC is that they want everybody to join like corgi. BS are not one of the bigger providers and probably not the cheapest but I am happy being with them.

Batty

 

[andycap]

My Domestic installer inspectors with the NIC have always been helpful and very thorough.I mainly do full rewires and have shown them 1st and 2nd fix jobs and have had to demonstrate all tests were practical.If you can do your job you have nothing to woory about.I agree with WOZZ on them adding there accreditation to these quick spark schemes,its not on.Its my opinion that if anyone thinks they can do a quick course and get 20 yrs expierience overnight they are very brave or stupid.All Schemes are about the same,they want your Money! It just keeps the few of us doing whats required by law,I think? We are not even Statutory are we! Thats why landlords dont even need an electrical Certificate to rent out a property,they need Gas and Energy only.Well ,i am off now,I could go on forever,cheers Boys,yours,Slightly fed up.

 

[batty]

My Domestic installer inspectors with the NIC have always been helpful and very thorough.I mainly do full rewires and have shown them 1st and 2nd fix jobs and have had to demonstrate all tests were practical.If you can do your job you have nothing to woory about.I agree with WOZZ on them adding there accreditation to these quick spark schemes,its not on.Its my opinion that if anyone thinks they can do a quick course and get 20 yrs expierience overnight they are very brave or stupid.All Schemes are about the same,they want your Money! It just keeps the few of us doing whats required by law,I think? We are not even Statutory are we! Thats why landlords dont even need an electrical Certificate to rent out a property,they need Gas and Energy only.Well ,i am off now,I could go on forever,cheers Boys,yours,Slightly fed up.

Hello Andycap welcome to the forum as you have said its all about money. BS who I am with only do full scope they are not interested in part timers ie kitchen fitters. All you can do is do what you do fill the forms in and get on with it, at least you know your work complies and is safe.

Batty

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

If anyone is that keen, you can go a read the report on the various Part-P scheme providers called ....

"Monitoring of Electrical Safety Competent Person Self-Certification Schemes: BD 2612"

It can be down loaded from here..

http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningandbuilding/monitorelectricalsafety

But you got to be keen cuz its 805 kb & 217 pages.

; \ ]

 

[mcgaw81]

Do you ever sleep specs???? ?:| ,

; )

 

[professional]

If anyone is that keen, you can go a read the report on the various Part-P scheme providers called ...."Monitoring of Electrical Safety Competent Person Self-Certification Schemes: BD 2612"

It can be down loaded from here..

http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningandbuilding/monitorelectricalsafety

But you got to be keen cuz its 805 kb & 217 pages.

; \ ]

Read it quite a while ago - interesting that NONE of the scams have filed accounts!

OFTEC provided virtually no info to DCLG whatsoever.

All of the schemes are being encouraged to increase membership - whilst at the same time being criticised for abusing entry requirements for Part P schemes i.e. short courses for the untrained which were really only meant for experienced but unqualified sparks.

Apparently the short courses are supposed to be designed so that ONLY experienced sparks can pass...............yeah, right!

If only experienced sparks are suitable for Part P then, since the virtual demise of any structured training systems (e.g. apprenticeships) where are all the experienced sparks going to come from?

I think that it is true to say that the assessment procedures DO vary both bewteen schemes and between assessors within the same scheme.

One ELECSA assessor gives all of the answers to the spark, stating that he should know the answers next time!

NICEIC assessors sometimes make rules up as they go along - e.g. insisting that only workwear purchased from the NICEIC is allowed to bear the NICEIC logo , or that work certified months before the assessment and subsequently changed/bodged by A.N Other is the responsibility of the contractor and been threatened with suspension! The NICEIC have Approved Contractors who have NO QUALIFICATIONS other than 2381.

A NAPIT assessor allowed membership to a "spark" who, on his next assessment, was found to be totally inacapable of performing the most basic of testing procedures.

All of the schemes have allowed in members who are totally incapable of understanding and completing certificates, sometimes even Minor Works FFS!

Anyone aware that British gas require sub-contractors to be NICEIC yet they are themselves registered with ELECSA - thereby avoiding possible conflicts between interpretations of the regs (or OTHER reeasons........... ] )

To be honest, these inconsistancies will never be stamped out whilst there exists a choice of who to pay your blood money to. What should be addressed is the farcicle way that incompetents are awarded membership by all of the schemes - thereby undermining the future of OUR trade!

Need any more?

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Read it quite a while ago - interesting that NONE of the scams have filed accounts!OFTEC provided virtually no info to DCLG whatsoever.

Interesting indeed...but.. WRONG!

Many didn't file individual accounts.. but they did file accounts!

and ELECSA filed FULL accounts!

BREC failed to file accounts and OFTEC didn't have to ! :|

Which if you go back and re-read..

PAGE 68:-

The majority have not accounted separately for scheme finances which are often absorbed into the accounts of parent organisations, resulting in a lack of clarity and openness. This has not helped the negative perception held by many of their stakeholders (prospective and registered installers) that they are just money-making schemes. Greater transparency and a clear focus on registration benefits will facilitate higher levels of registration retention and recruitment.

AND PAGE 77:

The requirement for separate scheme finances appeared to be a universal problem for scheme operators, with the exception of ELECSA which produced a full set of audited accounts. The remaining scheme operators generally provided high-level accounts statements of variable quality and detail. The nature of these statements rendered any further analysis extremely difficult, although it was clear to see that they had been derived by a rudimentary allocation and apportionment of income and expenditure from the main accounting system of a parent organisation.This impacted on the ability to make judgements on whether fees are being set at an appropriate rate, scheme funds are being used appropriately and adequate financial management is being exercised.

The most significant problem was with BREC, which failed to produce scheme accounts when requested. OFTEC provided a full set of audited accounts for its main competent person scheme (for the installation of oil-fired combustion appliances). However, due to the extremely low number of registered installers it was agreed by the Department that OFTEC did not have to provide separate accounts for its electrical safety competent person scheme. However, this was on the proviso that if the number of registered installers increases OFTEC will separate the account accordingly.

To be honest, these inconsistancies will never be stamped out whilst there exists a choice of who to pay your blood money to. What should be addressed is the farcicle way that incompetents are awarded membership by all of the schemes - thereby undermining the future of OUR trade!

The inconsistencies are a big issue which is far greater than just who you pay money to, as with all all local authority's different building inspectors apply different level of building regs compliance. go ask any builder who works between different LABC's, and the number of LABC around the country adds more levels of interpretation...

So it is far bigger than JUST the various part P providers..

PAGE 68:

A lack of consistency is somewhat inevitable due to the numbers involved (seven scheme operators, nearly 400 local authorities and about 30,000 competent persons) and the way that the system has been set up. The requirements of the scheme operators are loosely stated and largely outcome-related, and thus each scheme has the opportunity to interpret and fulfil them in its own way. This has naturally led to several different views and approaches to the same problem or activity. Consistency is also a particular issue across all of the local authorities. The LABC issued central policy guidance on the operation of Part P when it was introduced in January 2005 and the Department has supplemented this with clarifications to the regulations and circular letters. However, interpretation and implementation are devolved and can still vary considerably across different local authorities.

You can call me a nit picking grumpy old git if you want..

and you probably will :coat

But I do find it disappointing that posts can be added with apparent factual statements that are clearly untrue...

when they are not hard to verify!

This can only go to perpetuate other persons misconceptions that things are a lot worse than they actual are?

Unfortunately this can also also bring doubt over the validity of other "facts" posted:|

:| :coat

 

[avinalarf]

Gosh!

Not sure if it's worth me adding my twopenneth in after all that's been said, but...

My Elecsa assessment was only done on 1 property as that's all I had done. It was quite an extensive job though.

He asked me so many questions, I felt like I was back in the exam room. I didn't mind though because this was what I had prepared myself for. We went through numerous tests on a RM and he thoroughly went through completion of the test cert which was good as I found that area rather difficult.

I had a couple of non-conforms, which I corrected as soon as possible, then sent photographic evidence by email.

TBH, having passed my assessment it made me feel that all my hard and intense studying for the past 18mths had been worth it. As I've said before, nothing beats experience, but I feel I've learnt many important factors about electricity, installations etc and I am extremely grateful for all the guidance that has been and continues to be given to me on this excellent forum.

 

[ianmacd]

I'm ELECSA too and I had 3 sites ready but we ran out of time so we only went to one. Again, as avinalarf said, lots of tests and going though certs (for all 3 jobs) and questions.

Ian.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Do you ever sleep specs???? ?:| , ; )

sleep? ?:|

sometimes unintentionally

:z :z

between typing on them longer posts..

e.g. start at 11:00,

type Guiness Drink type Guiness Drink type Guiness Drink

type Guiness Drink till 12:00

Guiness Drink

:z :z:z

:z :z:z

:z :z:z

suddenly wake up 2:00 where am I?

oh eck there's me half written post...

finish typin..

submit 3:00

go to proper bed! :z :z:z

Blushing:^O:^O:^O:^O

 

[Andy™]

I'm ELECSA too and I had 3 sites ready but we ran out of time so we only went to one. Again, as avinalarf said, lots of tests and going though certs (for all 3 jobs) and questions.Ian.

for both my previous assessments, i only took him to 1 job, and thats all the choice he had. both were full re-wires, and i will have another full re-wire for this years

 

[Theorysparky]

My Elecsa assessment was my garage wiring

4mm radial,,underworktop sockets from fcu

boiler fed from lighting cct

2 way lighting cct

he took switch to bits batten to bits allsorts of questions

picked me up on using 1.5 t+e from fcu to single socket

regs said u can do it but best practice ??

he won

 

[ianmacd]

When you say piked you up, was that a non conformity or just an observation?

 

[Andy™]

picked me up on using 1.5 t+e from fcu to single socket

regs said u can do it but best practice ??

he won

dont see any problem with that. cable is adequately protected. it could well be best practice to use 1.5mm instead of 2.5