Northern Ireland

[binky]

OK Steps, I am still really intrigued as to what the justification is for the UK holding Northern Ireland? I ask because it would really good to understand a NI persons viewpoint.

The argument to date goes something along the fact you don't believe Ireland has any more claim to the land than the UK because the people are not indigenous and because Ireland was never a fully sovereign country under 1 king.

As I see it as an outsider, the whole place was Ireland, we invaded, never integrated properly with the locals who rebelled several times ( and failed several times to retake their country back) but eventually ended up retaining NI under a peace treaty. This as I understand it was because NI had been mostly resettled with protestants loyal to the UK.  However, the fact that this land is called Northern IRELAND, kind of tells me it really should be part of Ireland as a whole, and hence the continued arguments with Sinn Fein / IRA and all the appalling violence that went on.

NB I'm not trying to wind you up with this, but I would like to know your point of view. NI is something of a quandry to us on the mainland!

 

[ProDave]

I don't think I could choose to go and live in a country where your religion determines which side of the street you are allowed to live on.  As I don't practice a religion, I would not be welcome on either side.

I always think the solution to the NI problem is give them a referendum, stay with the UK, or move over to rule by Eire.

But don't fall into the Scottish neverendum debacle, make it clear it is a ONCE off choice otherwise you will have someone banging on for another referendum if it gives the "wrong" result.

 

[binky]

don't think that would help much either really. IMHO the only way the 'south' could persuade the 'north' to move over would be by offering better economic prospects, and even then the die-hard royalists would never forget! IMHO the segragation of Ireland was a mistake, but 20-20 hindsight is marvellous thing and I'm sure Steps would not agree with that.

I was raised RC in a council estate, it's quite surprising how entrenched anti-RC sentiments still exist, even if the protagonists have forgotten why. Anti RC sentiments are rather engrained into our culture via the likes of Guy Fawkes. We ended up with the house of Hannover on the throne because they were the first protestant relations in line to the throne 56 times removed or there abouts. The older I get the more moving to a republic like France appeals.

 

[steptoe]

I don't think I could choose to go and live in a country where your religion determines which side of the street you are allowed to live on.  As I don't practice a religion, I would not be welcome on either side.

I always think the solution to the NI problem is give them a referendum, stay with the UK, or move over to rule by Eire.

But don't fall into the Scottish neverendum debacle, make it clear it is a ONCE off choice otherwise you will have someone banging on for another referendum if it gives the "wrong" result.

I don't really have much time right now,

But,

The people of NI had a referendum, of a form,,

it's still British 

Binky, have you read and understood the link I posted previously to sidewinder about the intermixed wars during the English civil war period,?

There is much much more than the house of Hannover,

It's starts in the early 16th century with Martin Luther, culminating late 17th century with the Dutch House of Orange, with the blessing of the Pope to prevent whatever French king it was from amassing too much power in Europe. 

That's a very very quick overview, 

I will get some relevant links up when I'm on the PC. 

 

[binky]

you need a lifetime to understand European politics as well. Just the last 100 years will do 

  Its something we seem not to teach in our schools. Was watching a programme about the Stuarts in exile the other night - has always wondered how 'kings' came back from abroad. Martin Luther, had forgotten how far back he went, and having visited the Vatican this year I totally agree with the man! Unbelievable wealth exudes from every corner and crevice.

Logically NI belongs to someone else, but since when did people work on logic! As I have also said before, the current population of a place probably should have the most say in its future. I just wish that both sides in NI could bury the hatchet (not in each others heads) and get on with going forward. Whilst I believe history is important to try and prevent the same mistakes re-occurring ad infinitum, sometimes it may be better ignored???? I have many Irish friends from both sides of the divide, all lovelly people and all glad to be out of the terrible place NI became. They all get on well in England!

The following words in ref to Paris are from a posting by a friend. Ex NI ex British Forces:-

To say that it was Muslims who did the attacks last night in France is to say that the Catholics and Protestants did the attacks in Northern Ireland during the troubles. When the soldiers shot people in Northern Ireland, it is to say that the English shot a person. Stop blaming a whole society; No group of society did the killings, it was individuals. In this case is was terrorists using the name of Muslims so tiny minded people rise to the bait and make all Muslins feel threatened then they join their shitty cause. That tiny minute part of the planet want it; do not give it to them. Blame men who like hatred, not the masses.

 

[steptoe]

one of the main misunderstandings of NI is that it ius NO LONGER a religious war, and it hasnt been for a long time,

it is just dressed up thuggery,

people have made very good careers from being 'terrorists'

smuggling, racketeering, protection money, counterfeit goods,  etc etc etc,

I very much doubt Eire really wants NI, it couldnt financially afford it for a start, the single largest employer in NI is the State,

perhaps a little known fact, a lot of polis did NOT want the peace process, a great number of therm lost their houses, got repossessed, they had been making a fortune on overtime, living beyond their reasonable means,

way back when , I done some work, we basically got double wages due to danger money, paid double time for 16 hours a day, 7 days a week if you didnt leave site,

I think one of the biggest problems in NI is that virtually EVERYONE has been personally affected,

I myself have had workmates murdered, from both sides [if you want to call it that] , I have also had good drinking buddies murdered, and family members too,

my sister's fiancee's dad was murdered when he was a child,

ask most people, they will be able to name you a friend, or acquaintance, or workmate, that has been murdered, most likely,

I think its that closeness to the destruction by everday folks from every walk of life that makes it a unique situation, and mostly people in England are remote from that sense of personal emotion.

 

[binky]

I had kind of noticed a resurgence of activity on the news that is clearly the 'old school' restarting thuggery. So not much chance of a solution any time soon then? I suppose the best we can hope for is the maintenance of the peace, that if it lasts long enough might just take people past the continued hatred and fear. I suspect that will take generations.

Bloody shame, all the Irish people I know are lovelly, kind, peace loving people (which is why they left NI). It appears to be one of those circumstances where the majority are ruled by the minority of idiots. Lack of economic opportunities doesn't help as this encourages the young to become thugs for status and money, some of the estates in Plymouth are like that - the aspiration is to become the local drug dealer.

 

[steptoe]

I had kind of noticed a resurgence of activity on the news that is clearly the 'old school' restarting thuggery. So not much chance of a solution any time soon then? I suppose the best we can hope for is the maintenance of the peace, that if it lasts long enough might just take people past the continued hatred and fear. I suspect that will take generations.

Bloody shame, all the Irish people I know are lovelly, kind, peace loving people (which is why they left NI). It appears to be one of those circumstances where the majority are ruled by the minority of idiots. Lack of economic opportunities doesn't help as this encourages the young to become thugs for status and money, some of the estates in Plymouth are like that - the aspiration is to become the local drug dealer.

therein lies another major problem,

people from NI are BRITISH , whether they like it or not,

yes, they can take dual nationality, or irish nationality if they wish, but, they were born on British soil,

as is often said about people in England that are from other countries with other cultures and customs,

if you want to live in Britain then adopt British ways and values, or go to the country that you wish to have the culture of.

and, tbh, the thuggery never stopped, you just stopped hearing about it on the national news, try watching BBCNI sometime, even better is an online read of a local newspaper, [not particularly the Belfast Telegraph, its a bit more national,] , look at a map, pick a largish town and google its name for a newspaper,

Ballymena Times, Coleraine Chronicle, something like that.

oh, almost forgot, the county of Londonderry, or Derry depending on your stance, Catholics refuse to give it the pre of London as it was added on by the British at the time, so they call it Derry, often called stroke city when referring to the city of Londonderry/Derry,

anyway, back to the county, if some people are so offended by its modern name, why dont they simply refer to it by its original name?

it was originally County Coleraine, and there you have a little known fact that even a lot of people that live there dont know,

remember it, you may need that extra point in the pub quiz some night, 

 

[poni]

Born on British soil in Ireland?

 

[Essex1]

Good point. Northern Ireland is not a part of Great Britain.

 

[steptoe]

Born on British soil in Ireland?

Northern Ireland is NOT Ireland though, is it?

that would be like saying North Korea is South Korea,  its not wildly unknown for 2 [or more] different countries to be on one land mass, or share a partially similar name,

America is a prime example, in South America you have many different countries, then Central America with a few different countries, then North America where the USA and Canada are,

 

[poni]

is it not the north of Ireland? it was all one until about 100years ago it was Ireland then why not now? 

 

[steptoe]

Good point. Northern Ireland is not a part of Great Britain.

no, its part of the UK though,

Gibraltar isn't part of GB either, of the Falklands, nor are a lot of other British countries,

in fact, my passport [not presently a UK one] is a British Isles passport, nationality, British

is it not the north of Ireland?

its NOT actually, no,

Eire/Ireland, is actually further north than Northern Ireland.

 

[poni]

The north of Ireland is all of Ulster and not just the six under British rule

 

[Essex1]

This thread is a car crash.

 

[poni]

put your seat belts on and return your seat to the upright position  

 

[steptoe]

The north of Ireland is all of Ulster and not just the six under British rule

the most northerly Province of ancient Ireland is the nine counties of Ulster, you are correct,

6 of those counties form Northern Ireland, a different country entirely to Ireland, and they are British through the choice of the majority of the people that live there,,

that is the facts as they are,

that mass of land is no longer Hibernia, in the same way that Scotland is no longer Caledonia,

is it not the north of Ireland? it was all one until about 100years ago it was Ireland then why not now? 

but it wasnt under irish rule,

and has never been under a sole irish rule since records can date back to,

so, how can anyone argue that it should now be under any form of irish rule as a whole country when it never has been in the past?

from about 100years ago?

I'm thinking you need a nudge about partition in 1922, and Northern Ireland wasnt occupied at that time,

all of Ireland had been under British rule for a few hundred years prior to partition, and the people of NI wanted to remain British so that was when partition happened,

 

[poni]

Choice of the ruling class

that give them selves jobs and the RC's had to come over to this loving country

as someone said two jobs, one in the day and the night at a check point manly Ulster scot's

100 years of Dáil Éireann

anyway Bed time good night Steps nice to talk to you

 

[steptoe]

Choice of the ruling class

that give them selves jobs and the RC's had to come over to this loving country

as someone said two jobs, one in the day and the night at a check point

poni,

if you dont know the subject you are trying to debate dont drag it down to politics that you obviously know even less about,

you didnt even know the date of partition, and it seems you actually thought the British had invaded ireland to occupy it,

my, how a fool is easily led.

you do know the people that fought for partition and a 'free ireland' actually shot their own leader once they had been granted it,

says a lot about them and how they werent afraid to stab their own in the back,

 

[apprentice87]

Hi all,

I have my own views on the goings on in ireland, but out of respect for Steps i shall refrain from commenting, because BOTH sides each have their own EQUALLY VALID views on the matter and I myself do not know enough to comment further..

What i CAN tell you FOR A 100% FACT is this;

To my mind, there have been very brave, and also, very stupid people on BOTH sides of the divide, with the poor army stuck in the middle....

As Steps said, EVERY family there has suffered a loss as a result of the "troubles" and so Steps has a very much greater insight into all of this than ANY of us will ever have. He lived through this and it could not have been very pleasant...

In fact, a very great friend of mine's father was killed in an IRA ambush when she was about two, only the government tried to cover it up as they did not want to admit that the army was taking losses to the IRA in the early days.

The first soldier to be killed in northern ireland, was, according to the government, one Gunner Curtis..

This was untrue, but they had to admit to this, as Gunner Curtis was shot in the middle of Belfast. There were getting on for 30 soldiers killed BEFORE this, my friends dad being one of them.

My friend knew nothing of her father. He was killed when she was two.. I managed almost by a miracle to track down fellow soldiers that were actually there with him when he died. These men actually baby sat for my friend, so that her mum and dad could go out. They sent me photographs of her father that they had taken, that neither my friend, or her mother had ever seen. You can imagine the effect that this had on them.. My friends mother lived for almost 45 years believing the lies the government told her as to the circumstances of her husbands death. Every week of these 45 years she went to church...

Once i found the truth, [and i know it is the truth. as the men concerned told me facts that they could not otherwise have known] it had such an effect on her that she never went to church ever again..

i could relate the details of her fathers death, but that would not be right, it is, as i am sure you will understand, a very private family matter, but he died a very unpleasant death, take that from me...

There are many more details that i could relate, but these men risked a lot in telling me what really happened. Steps will understand what "section 10" is......

Every person in Northern ireland that lived through those times has their own tale to tell, their own nightmares they have to live with, but as Steps said, people think it is all over now, it is most certainly not.... Things might not be as bad as they were, but it is still a hellish place..

Finally, i have taken the liberty of reproducing for you, a poem that a young soldier, just out of his teens, that was ACTUALLY THERE whilst my friends fathers life ebbed away, wrote in his memory and sent to me... Read it carefully and slowly and reflect upon the nightmare that these brave young men lived through........ It makes me cry every time i read it.....

[SIZE=16pt]Tears In The Rain[/SIZE]​

 ​

I remember all those years ago, when I was but a child,​

Standing there on Belfast's streets, the night was black,​

The wind was wild.​

And rain poured down upon our heads, our sorry band,​

Guardians of a splintered peace,​

The death and carnage out of hand.​

In Erins land.​

 ​

And all the while the glistening streets reflected back the city's light,​

The smell of wet, of cold, of winters night.​

Sodden combat's clung like glue to wet and frozen legs,​

Cars swished by as pubs disgorged their drunken human dregs.​

And then a shot, a single sound above the beat of rain,​

A shout, a scream, a muffled noise, the panic rose,​

Again, again.​

We gather round the sodden heap, a brother lost,​

A friend asleep,​

And as I watched, his life blood ran into the falling rain,​

Melting slowly with the flow, returning to the earth again.​

 ​

 ​

I often walk into the rain, and when I do, I see again,​

Those tortured faces from the past, the friends now gone,​

With peace at last.​

And though those times have all passed by,​

The tears still come, I walk and cry,​

For I cant seem to come to terms with all those things I saw.​

And now I cant remember how my life had been before.​

It seems as though my time began upon those rain lashed streets​

Belfast was my hell on earth, the place where conscious memory meets.​

On those black streets.​

 ​

And as so many years have past, other peoples lives have changed.​

They dont recall those troubled times, dont want to know,​

Their minds arranged.​

The sacrifice that we all made, forgotten now, in misty time.​

Broken lives are all thats left, a few words written down in rhyme.​

A social crime.​

I turn for home, my penance paid, remembering again.​

The friends I lost, the life I lost,​

With tears in the rain.​

 ​

 ​

The words of a brave British soldier, just a young boy barely out of his teens, trying to bring peace to a troubled land.....

john....