PLC re-programmin

[mattbeetle]

Hi All

I recently purchased a used vacuum forming machine, which is controlled by a Omron NT31C-ST141-EV1 touch screen.

I have issues because the timings of most of the processes are limited to below 99 seconds in some case 30 seconds.

Due to the material I am forming I need timings to be in excess of 120 seconds.

I have contacted the machine manufacture and because its 16 years old they do not support this machine, nor do they have any employees who have any knowledge of it.

I am new to PLC's and have not a great understanding of them.
Can this be easily changed by either myself or a PLC engineer?

Is it as simple as getting PLC software, downloading the programme from the control, finding the section controls timing of particular process and uploading it back into the machine??? Or would you need the original coding?

Any help would be really appreciated.

Kind Regards

Matt

 

[Lurch]

It would really depend on the specifics of the machine and what exactly does what, and how. There could be other timers/relays/contactors/interlocks that would need altering/checking/reconfiguring and/or the timings might be for a reason (the heater may have a particular duty cycle for instance).

So who knows, it would need someone to actually take a look I'd have thought.

 

[Tony S]

The touch screen communicates to a host PLC, it doesn’t directly control the machine. You need to find out what make and model.

I’ve not had any dealings with Omron PLC’s but I believe RoB and some other members have.

 

[Rob.]

Firstly you need to find out what software was used to program the device. You don't need a backup of the software as you can upload it from the PLC itself. However you will not have any annotations and navigating the software becomes a lot more time consuming without. 

The limitations could be in the code or it could be that the input fields on the HMI have been set to only accept numbers between a certain value e.g 0 - 99. The HMI because of it's age will most likely use a different set of software to program. 

I have dealt with Omron a few times, but mainly deal with Siemens, Rockwell and Mitsubishi. So without looking up, I can't be certain on the software packages you will need. 

It could be just as simple as changing the range in the code or HMI, but as already stated this could cause other implications. Without knowing how the machine works or how it's coded or wired I couldn't guess at what. 

 

[ProDave]

Without the source code I think you are ********. and some PLC manufacturers charge a lot of money for the programming software, while others give it away fro free.
 

 

[mattbeetle]

Hi Rob

Thank you for the reply.

I have contacted Omron who cam back with the following response-

The program on the NT31C series HMI can be set up to have limits in the numerical input areas, these limits are usually configured in the HMI and not the PLC. Therefore, if you access the relevant program area on the HMI, you should be able to adjust the limits as required. 
To do this, you will need the programming software which is a free of charge download from myomron.com. You will need to register yourself onto this site, but once registered, the software can be found under downloads/4.products/software/nt/ntst/NTST-EV4.82.zip 
You will also need a programming cable which is the XW2Z200S-CV. This is an RS232C to RS232C cable, so your PC will either need to have an RS-232C port, or you will need a USB to to RS232C converter. 
Should you need them, we have a network of Systems Integrators that can help, further details on them can be found on the following link: 
https://industrial.omron.co.uk/en/contact/system-integrators

I have downloaded the software and in the process of sourcing a cable. 

Really didn't want to have to pay out for a system integrator at the moment as only just starting up a business, so trying keep costs down.

The main thing I would like to know is with the software now known, is it quite straightforward to download the information from the control and upload it again? 

This way I can keep the original program & data, then have the freedom to change 1 thing at a time. Look forward to your response.

Kind Regards

Matt

 

[Rob.]

With that, you should be able to take an upload of the HMI. 

Once uploaded save it somewhere on the laptop. Then save it again under a different name. E.G HMI_Upload_Original and then save it as HMI_Upload_Modified.

Modify the second one, and download to the device. If you screw it all up, you should be able to download the original and be back at where you started. 

You really want to be able to go through the code and drawings and ensure that you know what the changes you are going to make aren't going to have an adverse effect on the machine. 

A system integrator may seem expensive, but from experience we're a lot cheaper than a broken machine. 

 

[Lurch]

Really didn't want to have to pay out for a system integrator at the moment as only just starting up a business, so trying keep costs down.

Ah right, understood. Just do whatever you want then, hope for the best. I guess it will work OK if you just randomly increase the times?

Basically you have asked a question and then ignored all the answers apart from the ones that you wanted, in which case why bother asking?

 

[Sidewinder]

Don't forget what you are doing, could constitute a major modification, thus could well require the machine to be re CE marked for compliance with statute law, and as you are using it in a business, then there is a statute law duty that you have to comply with.

Good luck and welcome to the forum, if you've not done this sort of stuff before, you might struggle.

Even those of us who work regularly with PLC's can't always immediately swap from one system to another.

 

[Tony S]

If it’s like some of the forming and packaging machines I’ve worked on they used a PLC drum controller. Drums can allow overlaps in process stages and set overall cycle time, but they aren’t very flexible.

God help you if the get the cycle timing wrong.

The worse I’ve come across? Sandiacre packaging, get the timing wrong and it would do exactly what it wanted to do. (Ever tried to get a 30Ft long bag of chips in the freezer? It won’t fit!)

 

[mattbeetle]

Thank you Rob for all your assistants, really appreciated.

Lurch not sure what your problem is. I have taken the answers on board, want to research all avenues that I may be able to do myself and appreciate being made aware of the pit falls involved.

 

[rapparee]

A system integrator may seem expensive, but from experience we're a lot cheaper than a broken machine. 

What's a system integrator? Is that just a fancy way of saying a plc programmer / spark  who knows what he's at.

 

[Lurch]

What's a system integrator? Is that just a fancy way of saying a plc programmer / spark  who knows what he's at.

Sounds about right.

 

[Rob.]

What's a system integrator? Is that just a fancy way of saying a plc programmer / spark  who knows what he's at.

Sounds about right.

Company's that work closely with a certain brand. E.g the company I work for is a SI for Rockwell and Siemens.

So we design and engineer automation control systems, for clients based on using Rockwell or Siemens gear. We have to prove knowledge of how to get the most out of their products and show we are competent basically. It allows us to get heavy discounts on purchasing materials from them.  

An no, I wouldn't class myself as a spark anymore, the only reason I'm on these forums is to keep my hand in with new stuff. An maybe help a few people.