Replaced outside siren- connecting 'Hold-off +' makes alarm go off!

[deansplit]

Hi

I replaced an old alarm box/siren yesterday - sea air rusted a few components and it was triggering tamper randomly, a few times a day (or night!). To make sure it was the box at fault I've had the box off for 6 weeks with no problem.

I bought a Honeywell 8EP420 - ADE RESON8. I took a photo of the wire colouring of the original to reconnect the new one. I have the bridge switches all set correctly - battery is 'on', sounder is '20 mins'... I connected trigger, return & hold-off negative, but as soon as I connect the hold-off positive, the siren goes off which I know is normal until I get the cover on and enter the code, but it doesn't switch off at all! However, it works with this wire off but there's a feedback noise on our internal sounder (best described as the crickets/insects you hear in the bushes when on holiday somewhere hot!) It' comes and goes, but is mainly going! Not noisy, but annoying and clearly something wrong.

Any suggestions of help much appreciated.

Many thanks

Dean

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

Sorry to state the obvious but you have connected it wrong.

Picture of the siren connections and  picture of the panel connections would help. 

In the mean time you could take the siren down, take the battery out of the panel, connect the battery to the hold off and close the siren lid (and any screws, the siren should stop when the lid goes on.

 

[deansplit]

Thanks, but I've copied the wiring from the 2nd box -  the only ones that could possibly wrong are trigger and return - black is hold-off, red is hold-on...? 

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

well what happens if you swap them round? (what 2nd box?)

Just as a point you can't wire 2 external sirens direct to a panel. (the tamper will not work if you do)

 

[Andy™]

well what happens if you swap them round? (what 2nd box?)

Just as a point you can't wire 2 external sirens direct to a panel. (the tamper will not work if you do)

you also risk overloading the panel with 2 sounders too

 

[deansplit]

2nd box - one at front, one at rear

well what happens if you swap them round? (what 2nd box?)

  

Just as a point you can't wire 2 external sirens direct to a panel. (the tamper will not work if you do)

We have one at front and rear of house - loads of houses do, how can this be overloading? It's been working absolutely fine for the 16 years we've had it fitted - it's only the fact that one siren has corroded that I've needed to replace it. 

Do you mean swap red and black around? or blue and yellow?

Dean

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

I never said it will overload anything.

The fact that you have 2 sounders makes a lot of difference. I would also guess it is the cause of your problem.

I shall try and make it as easy as possible.

When you install two sounders on the same panel they are NOT wired "both the same" so to wire one the same as the other will not work.

If they are wired wrong, or "lashed up"they will "work" but the tampers are disabled. I am guessing yours were wired as they should be.

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This is how it is done.

You have 2 sirens Front and Back.

The front siren is wired as normal

The rear siren isn't wired as normal

The tamper return for the front siren is now used as the negative hold off for the rear siren. (The positive hold off and ringer are normal) 

The tamper return for the rear is now the single tamper return.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

You can get several problems with incompatible sirens or just cheap sirens, which can manifest them  selves in various ways, the most common being that no matter how you wire it, the second siren will not stop. The other one is it works for 30 seconds, then when you test the sounders, they both activate, but then one will not stop.

You have 4 choices.

1) Do away with one of the sirens

2) Change both sirens to the same make and model and cross your fingers

3) Install a relay for each sirens tamper

4) Get some one in who is an "Alarm engineer" who know how to do one of the above. (it usually ends up as option 3)

 

[Andy™]

2nd box - one at front, one at rear

We have one at front and rear of house - loads of houses do, how can this be overloading? It's been working absolutely fine for the 16 years we've had it fitted - it's only the fact that one siren has corroded that I've needed to replace it. 

Do you mean swap red and black around? or blue and yellow?

Dean

power required for 2x sirens can overload it, but thats only going to happen when they are sounding

I

You have 4 choices.

1) Do away with one of the sirens

2) Change both sirens to the same make and model and cross your fingers

3) Install a relay for each sirens tamper

4) Get some one in who is an "Alarm engineer" who know how to do one of the above. (it usually ends up as option 3)

or use an alarm with expanders that you can connect a 2nd bellbox to

 

[deansplit]

The front siren is wired as normal

The rear siren isn't wired as normal

The tamper return for the front siren is now used as the negative hold off for the rear siren. (The positive hold off and ringer are normal) 

The tamper return for the rear is now the single tamper return.

OK thanks, sounds like this is what's happened as I deleted the photo of the rear (siren I replaced) siren's wiring by mistake so copied that of the front one! So sounds like I need to connect  what I have as the tamper rtn (as on front siren) to the neg hold-off, and presumably the neg hold off goes to the tamper rtn then. Then connect pos hold -foo to pos hold-off, and trigger as is? Can I do any damage swapping them about ?

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

Yes.

Damage? unlikely just wont work.

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

For what its worth, I haven't seen two sounders fitted to many panels, but when done properly, never been a problem, never "Overloaded" anything, as for changing the panel to one that has expanders to allow a second sounder, what is it they say? meh? Pointless, waste of money and not necessary.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

Things have  changed over the years   but  i was taught to never connect more than one SAB to an alarm, the front would be a SAB and any others would be SCB's. SAB= uses power from the main panel to sound the siren, SCB=uses the internal battery in the bell box to power the sounder. 

Your problem is the tampers have to be in series whilst the other wiring in parallel.  I have never come across a relay to connect the tampers up, no need.

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

I have come across relays more than once to connect sounders to the panel, just because you have never seen it done does not mean it is never done or that there is no need for it.

Some times you have to, when you have multiple sounders on a building that has a very big foot print and consequently has to have remote power supplies just for the sounders.

Then you also have mechanical sirens, they have to be connected to a relay and then to the panel as they are mains fed. (I am not saying I agree with mains sirens, but the point is you have to use a relay)

 

[deansplit]

Hi... OK, today I connected as you mentioned Richard – swapped hold -offs about so red to neg hold-off, black to pos hold-off and no joy. I even tried swapping trigger and return about reverting hold offs to correct colours. I've left as it was with pos hold off disconnected. I've taken photos of front, rear sirens, and panel and wiring centre. I'm having to send in two replies as very small file size attachment limit, here's the front and rear sirens...

 

[deansplit]

 The panel...



and the wiring centre...



Hope this helps?? Thanks

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

I have come across relays more than once to connect sounders to the panel, just because you have never seen it done does not mean it is never done or that there is no need for it.

Some times you have to, when you have multiple sounders on a building that has a very big foot print and consequently has to have remote power supplies just for the sounders.

Then you also have mechanical sirens, they have to be connected to a relay and then to the panel as they are mains fed. (I am not saying I agree with mains sirens, but the point is you have to use a relay)

I certainly did not make any mention  of relays to control sounders which is a commonly used method in many applications. You mentioned them for the tampers, which i have never seen and can see no need for.  I also did not say dont do it just because i have not seen it done, it was an observance from over 40 years of  my work, 10 of these only in  intruder  alarms. 

Ps. I have also never seen an alarm control centre like the last pic, seen a lot worse. 

I believe the problem is still the tampers between the 2 sounders  ard not wired in series

 

[Andy™]

 The panel...

and the wiring centre...

View attachment 9480

Hope this helps?? Thanks

WTGrape is that diy bodge home made contraption?!

 

[binky]

it might be diy, but at least it's clear.

 

[Richard-the-Ninth]

I know what that "diy bodge home made contraption" is unless it was a rhetorical question.

For those that do not know, (and the OP) allow me.

Who ever installed the alarm has never installed one before, so what they have done is to bring one cable back from each device (Be that a key pad, a sensor or sounder) and then "interconnect" each device as required. Apart from the fact it looks terrible and is a waste of time, it helps no one since its configuration is only known to the installer.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

deansplit (the OP) Nice pictures, unfortunately "the wiring centre" makes things worse, since it means we do not know how the sounders are configured. (with something like that is could be any combination)

What i need to know is what cables are connected to the sounders. The only way to do that is to use a multi-meter or follow the cable run back from each sounder.

Alarm sounders (Particularly the tamper) are NOT wired in series (Most other tampers ARE wired in series)

Alarm sounder tampers send back a voltage, which is why you can't connect them in parallel, and why you can't connect them in series.

You need to connect (as I said before) the tamper return of one connects the supply of the other.

The problem is that as you did not take a picture of both sirens connections before you changed one of them, we need to know what wire does what, as without it could take x? to figure it out by trial and error.

I only wish it was easier to do, but the problem is in the "wiring centre"  and without know what is what......................(It is likely that the colours change from one sounder to the other, which is why you can not get it to work properly)

I see it that you have 4 choices.

1) I think in this case, as it will cost a lot for some one to come in and figure it out for you, (And to be honest even most "Alarm engineers" will not have a clue as to what is being done)

2) You re wire the whole thing  / the two sounders (doing away with the not required wiring centre)

3) You learn how to use a multi meter and figure out what does what. In respect of the two sounders

4) Something I have yet to think of

I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but at first it was assumed that there is no "wiring centre" (Since there is no need for it) and that it was a simple error that you had made, but now you have provided more information it changes everything, in the world of alarms it is up to the installer which colour wire s/he uses for what purpose. (It's similar in the world of electricians (Particular 2 way switching, most stick to a "standard" but not all do)

As for clearly marked, yes they are..........with numbers that only mean something to the installer.....................unless you are (unintentionally) holding back more information? 

 

[deansplit]

Gawd, thanks for this - it's a family friend who I understand has done many alarms in his time. This alarm has been operating fine for 16 years so this should be a simple case of replacing the 4 wires - so annoyed I've lost the original photo, have looked through deleted pics too but no luck! I did email to ask him but not seen him for a while so can't really press him. I'll try again though.