Scammed By Electrician/contractor? Who Pays?

[HomeOwner]

I have a few questions regarding a new build and Part P certification.

We hired a contractor for the build, and that contractor had his own electrician (his own son). It was only after the building was "finished" that we had reason to believe that the Part P Certificate was not legal. The situation is as follows:

- The electrician who did the work is not Part P certified, he is not a Competent Person.
- It was this electrician who tested the installation and filled out and signed the EIC. This was three months after we started using the building.
- There were no inspections of the electric installation through building control (our contractor said, and still says, it wasn't necessary)
- The Part P certificate itself was signed by somebody else (who is a Competent Person/Part P certified). This electrician however has never done any work on the installation, has probably never even seen it, and has not signed the EIC. All we have from this electrician is an invoice for £75 (the electrical installation cost over £30K) and his signature on the Part P certificate.
- Two other electricians, both Competent Persons and Part P certified, have deemed the installation dangerous (they found several loose earth cables and even an unterminated live wire). What's more, they were unable to locate one of the circuits that was tested according to the EIC.
- The contractor and the original electrician have been refusing, for over a year, to come back to site and fix the problems. They are also claiming that their test reports and certificates are correct, valid and legal.

Part of the building is commercial, and this situation has cost us a lot of money (without a building certificate, the building is not insurable).

My questions:
1. Is our contractor right in saying that the whole procedure was correct and legal?
2. If it wasn't, how can we prove that it was not? What can we do about it?
3. Is there anything we can do about this electrician who is not a Competent Person? We can't report him to a Competent Persons scheme, because he isn't a member. He has caused us not only a lot of hassle, but also a lot of money (not being able to use the commercial part of the building, costs for other electricians to do tests etc.). Shouldn't he be held responsible to pay for the costs we incurred?

4. What can we do to get financial redress?

 

 

[Manator]

You have a very difficult situation and should take this legal.

If you are able it would be good for us to have all the information such as a copy of the certificate and some photo evidence. You could even get one of the electricians who have looked at your installation to come on here with a brief account of what they have found.

All work should be covered by certificates, from the builder and from building control. A building completion certificate will only be issued if you have used a Part P registered person. if you could provide some more info we could help.

The forum does not allow you to add links or data to your posts, this is to stop spammers, so you could contact myself and I could add the info for you.

 

[Andy™]

is the property a house / flat with a commercial part attached? if its just commercial, then part p doesnt apply

if you have a 'part p certificate', that is genuine but by someone else, then you could go to his scheme provider, since he cannot sign off someone else work. but if he has, then you could chase him for the dodgy work since he has claimed said work to be his...

only other option really would be to get A. N. Other in to issue an EICR, and get the original spark to correct the issues. if he fails to then try small claims court

 

[Steve3948]

Part P covers the Domestic only ??

 

[Manator]

Part P covers the Domestic only ??

Homeowner said

Part of the building is commercial, and this situation has cost us a lot of money (without a building certificate, the building is not insurable).

 

[binky]

yep, anyone can do commercial, but can cuase building insurance problems for client.

Take registered guy to court - silly sod shouldn't have signed it off, and will be insured as part of scheme he belongs to. Also, as said above, complain to the scheme provider - if NICEIC, any installation registered through them is insured for 6 years against non-compliances with BS7671. Not sure about the other scheme providers.

I'm afraid you have suffered typical tit builder syndrome - doesn't want to pay for real sparky so gets firk wit son to do the job. What he has done i would desribe as mis-selling, so you really need to go to trading standards. Did you get certificate from building control for the works - if not it hasn't been registered.

 

[Steve3948]

Homeowner said

Part of the building is commercial, and this situation has cost us a lot of money (without a building certificate, the building is not insurable).

Yeah I got that bit, what I'm saying is the Domestic part of the property is the only part requiring the notification to building control, the commercial side just needs the EIC.

 

[Andy™]

Yeah I got that bit, what I'm saying is the Domestic part of the property is the only part requiring the notification to building control, the commercial side just needs the EIC.

actually, if the commercial side is fed from the domestic side, then the commercial side also comes under part p (or at least it used to, and i dont think thats been changed

 

[Steve3948]

actually, if the commercial side is fed from the domestic side, then the commercial side also comes under part p (or at least it used to, and i dont think thats been changed

Agreed, and if its fed off the Domestic side it's not officially commercial.

 

[ProDave]

This "can't get insurance" but puzzles me.

Having self built my own house (and shortly to be doing another one) I have had no problems with insurance.

We got a self build policy that covered us at all stages of build, and converted to normal insurance upon completion.  Up here (may be different darn sarf) you can get a "temporary habitation certificate" when the building is nearly, but not quite finished that allows you to move in and insure the property.  Speak to your building control and see if something similar is available down south, at least that would satisfy the insurance aspect.

So are building control refusing to issue a completion certificate?  That's the nub of the question.  If so, list EXACLTY what it is they requre to be rectified before they will issue a completion certificate.  At the end of the day, it's that completion certificate that matters, nothing else.

 

[HomeOwner]

Thanks for all those replies!

To answer some of the questions:

At this point in time, I'd rather not publish any of the certificates, because the installer's and contractor's names would be on them.
The reports we have from other electricians are pretty damning: 
"The overall standard and presentation of the board was poor."

"Most connections needed tightening in the board."
"There was excessive use of chocolate block in the light switches and some lose terminals. 4 sockets listed on the original test result sheets could not be located."
"We understand from your  Consultant, that at first sight the Part P Sign off is not what you would expect from documents required by Building Control."
 

While the commercial part of the building is separated from the residential, some of the electrics are not. We have been told that therefore Part P applies to the commercial part of the building as well.

As for the building control certificate and insurance: We have an interim solution and for the time being have convinced building control that the building is safe (with the help of the additional Part P electricians we hired). That, however, has cost us a lot of money, and we simply want that money back from the person(s) who caused the problems in the first place. I also assume that we will need more in-depth testing (as most of the installation is hidden in the fabric of the building), which will be even more expensive than the first tests.

 

[Andy™]

is the commercial side powered from the domestic or does it have its own electric supply, separate from the house?

 

[ProDave]

There is NOTHING wrong with choc blocks in the back of a light switch box.  Perfectly normal for "loop at the switch" wiring.

If someone is telling you that's wrong, I would start to question THEIR competence.

So do you have a building control completion certificate or not?

If you do, then concentrate on getting an EICR (electrical installation condition report) done by someone independent, and then pushing the original contractor to rectify any wiring faults found by the EICR.

 

[steptoe]

:shakehead

 

[Manator]

Unfortunately you are now a member of a vast amount of people who have been done over by a system that does not work. We can edit the forms to remove any names, but why would you?

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

Also anyone could tighten up connections, but were they actually loose?  Part of the 30k you paid went to the guy who wrongly signed it off !   Is the installers name the same on the EIC and the Part P cert ?

 

[batty]

£30k  just on the electrics this must have been one big job did you not have any form of contracts?

 

[Sidewinder]

Thanks for all those replies!

To answer some of the questions:

At this point in time, I'd rather not publish any of the certificates, because the installer's and contractor's names would be on them.

The reports we have from other electricians are pretty damning: 

"The overall standard and presentation of the board was poor."

"Most connections needed tightening in the board."

"There was excessive use of chocolate block in the light switches and some lose terminals. 4 sockets listed on the original test result sheets could not be located."

"We understand from your  Consultant, that at first sight the Part P Sign off is not what you would expect from documents required by Building Control."

While the commercial part of the building is separated from the residential, some of the electrics are not. We have been told that therefore Part P applies to the commercial part of the building as well.

As for the building control certificate and insurance: We have an interim solution and for the time being have convinced building control that the building is safe (with the help of the additional Part P electricians we hired). That, however, has cost us a lot of money, and we simply want that money back from the person(s) who caused the problems in the first place. I also assume that we will need more in-depth testing (as most of the installation is hidden in the fabric of the building), which will be even more expensive than the first tests.

[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]You can redact the certs, that would help.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Any one can say the board was poor, easily done, did the “inspector” attach regulation numbers or specifically dangerous issues to the board completion, “untidiness” is not a breach of regulations unless it is dangerous.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Any connection can be tightened further than it already is.  If the connections were tightened to the torque settings required by the device manufacturers then they were tight enough. If the “person” following on did not assess the torque of the existing connection and follow this up with additional recorded torque with a calibrated device then this evidence is worthless and does not constitute a breach of regulations.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]There is nothing wrong with strip connectors in light switches, however, they must be suitable.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Again loose terminals could be a rogue comment, see above.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The original contractor MUST be able to identify all of the points they have connected.  These points could be hidden, this could be an issue, or it could not.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Your “inspecting” contractor should also know what is required, not just your “Consultant”![/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The exact split between Part P / Not Part P will depend on where the origin is located and how the supply is distributed.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]No one can I&T the complete install without “hacking out” the cable runs, with the associated mess and possible damage this could cause.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The original installer MUST certify their cable installation.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]It seems from here that things are not what they should be.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]However, there is much more information required to format a full picture and give accurate advice.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]The scheme providers MUST be your first port of call.[/SIZE]

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

My thoughts... and questions...

1/ You say the electrician was not a competent person?  Do you mean..

1a) he is not a member of any scheme but was claiming to be?

1b) he is not a member of any scheme but he never claimed to be?

1c) he is a member of a scheme but you just think he was not competent judging by his work?

If it is 1a) then the scheme will most likely be happy to pursue him for miss use of logos ect...

If 1b) then that is all perfectly legal...  a DIY person can undertake electrical work legally.

but they should notify the LABC first for them to come out and test & certify the works..

If 1c) Then most scheme providers would probably offer an assessment of the problem visit than suggest the contractor put right any anomalies that do not comply with BS7671.

** NOTE **  AFAIK non of the schemes will enter into debate about the value of a contract,  or reimbursement for work not carried out to you satisfaction..

They will ONLY look at electrical safety issues due to non compliance with BS7671/Part P or use of logos!

2/  Do you have a formal written contract stipulating a schedule of work to be carried out, and/or including a cost for the work?

If yes and you can prove works have not been carried out then its contact Trading Standards I think!

If no then........

well..  bit hard to prove anything IMHO!!!

3/ Did you say this work is over 12 months old now???...

If yes...  why have you waited so long??

4/ Lose terminals....

As has been pointed out this is a bit vague to say the least....

ALL screw connections have three possible settings...

4a) Too Lose

4b) correct torque specified by equipment manufactures

4c) Over tight!

Almost every screw terminal can be overtightened   possibly damaging the cable the screw or both!

But even if they were lose it would be dam-near impossible to prove negligence of the contractor for that complaInt... 

as he could claim that someone else has been and tampered with the screws after he left site!!

About as realistic as trying to prove that your washing powder is not soapy enough cuz some grass stains don't come out of you children's PE kit!

5/ Have you put a formal written complaint to the contractor/builder and got a written reply???

Probably other stuff..

But we do need more info me thinks!

(welcome to the forumbulator)

Guinness   Guinness

 

[NozSpark]

I think you'll now have a problem as "Others" may have "Tampered" or altered the original installation since it was installed,,,, also the delay from installation to now could cause an issue....

However I'm not a legal bod so I could easily be wrong