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avinalarf

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Can someone please explain to me what the best way to supply a garden shed would be - just lights and socket for chest freezer? I'm looking at a job tomorrow so I don't know about the current setup yet.

Could someone also be extra patient and tell me why exporting the earth from the house is so bad - I've read some other posts about this subject, but still don't quite grasp it! :(

Cheers

Nat

 
aww bless - exporting earths again :)

Have you seen Electrician Forum

and

Electrician Forum

depends on earthing arrangement, my understanding is not good on PME fine on TT

Under fault conditions (with PME) anywhere on the shared earth the fault current finds the path to earth with the least resistance. If this happens top be the 1.5mm cpc supplying your shed it may melt.

It's why the bonding is 10mm - has to potentially take your neighbours fault as well as your own!

I was told a wooden shed insulated from the ground was unlikely top be a problem but not ideal. Fine on TT as it's only your own houses fault current you need to worry about.

Complicated if any extraneous conductive parts eg mains water

Someone will give you it better.

(so if I was a spark I'd be looking at houses earthing arrangement, construction of the shed and extraneous conductive parts, expected usage in the shed, distance from CU (volt drop), route of cable)

 
Thanks Apache

I had seen the OP by you, but not the initiated one by SparkyMarky - that got a bit heated didn't it! :eek:

It's a bit clearer now, but I'll hit the books again and have a read up.

 
Can someone please explain to me what the best way to supply a garden shed would be - just lights and socket for chest freezer? I'm looking at a job tomorrow so I don't know about the current setup yet.Could someone also be extra patient and tell me why exporting the earth from the house is so bad - I've read some other posts about this subject, but still don't quite grasp it! :(

Cheers

Nat
1st bit....

most likely best method SWA preferably from a D/P isolator back to the CU on its own circuit

But from an FCU from a ring will also be fine.

One of the main points is the Volt drop on longer runs to out buildings..

Some gardens can be long...

worth considering longest run for type of cable sizes..

Lighting circuits must not exceed 3% (6.9V)

lets assume the MAX power needed is 10A or 16A

and considering 2.5mm / 4.0mm / 6.0mm cables

@ 10amps not exceed 6.9v dropped

2.5 volt drop 18mv/a/m max length = 38.3m

4.0 volt drop 11mv/a/m max length = 62.7m

6.0 volt drop 7.3mv/a/m max length = 94.5m

@ 16amps not exceed 6.9v dropped

2.5 volt drop 18mv/a/m max length = 24m

4.0 volt drop 11mv/a/m max length = 39.2m

6.0 volt drop 7.3mv/a/m max length = 59.1m

so if less than 20m from house..

2.5mm would be fine as long as 16A max is sufficient:)

 
so if less than 20m from house..

2.5mm would be fine as long as 16A max is sufficient:)
Enquirer did say that shed was less than 5m from main abode :)

 
Enquirer did say that shed was less than 5m from main abode :)
No prob's then! :D

Re the exporting earth bit ...

best to read the article..

"Electrical installations outdoors: a supply to a detached outbuilding (243 k)"

(or print a copy to keep for future reference)

which can be found here..

Wiring Matters magazine - 2005 issues - The IET

it should answer all of your questions..

if not come back after reading it? :) ;)

SL

 
in that case just drape an extension lead out of a window - will be fine :)

(I ran a freezer in a shed like that for 6 weeks)
ffs apache, 5m, extension lead! :eek:

all that expense?

wet string would work that distance! ; \ ]:)

 
ffs apache, 5m, extension lead! :eek: all that expense?

wet string would work that distance! ; \ ]:)
tried it but it kept drying out and my cornettos melted - it was summer

so had to fork out for a proper extension.

I intend to pass it down to my grandchildren

even better then there was no RCD on the whole house - just re-wireable fuses!

:D

 
Could someone also be extra patient and tell me why exporting the earth from the house is so bad - I've read some other posts about this subject, but still don't quite grasp it! :( Cheers

Nat
If you consider electricity as a physical lump of "something" (current) that leaves the supply transformer, then it has to return to the transformer to balance things out, normally via the neutral wire.

If there is a break in the neutral wire, then there is no return path for the current and the system cannot balance.

However, at the transformer one end of the supply winding is connected to true earth. (In real life it is a three-phase transformer and the star point is connected to earth but it is easier to picture a single-phase transformer with one end connected to earth.)

The neutral wire is also connected to earth (staked) at regular intervals along its path but not neccessarily at each outlet point (think - your house), maybe just once or twice per street.

If a break occurs in the neutral, current will now flow from the transformer to your house, through your equipment, back down the neutral as far as the break. It will then flow down the nearest earthing point (one or more of the stakes), through the mass of the earth, and back up the earthing point (stake) at the transformer. Thus, the system is balanced.

If the nearest neutral stake to your house is four doors away and the neutral breaks three doors down then there is no return path for the current - there is no earth path for it to travel along.

Now comes the dodgy bit (and the important thing to remember is that your neutral and your internal earth are connected together at the supply head).

If you connect the neutral to true earth at your house, for instance by banging in your own earth rod, the current now has a way to get home - down your own earth connection and back to the transformer.

But your three neighbours, who also suffer from this break in the neutral, have the same problem. The only way their current can get home is onto the neutral wire, along to your property and then onto your earth connection via the connection in the head. And we're not talking fault current here, it's ALL of the electricity they use that will return via your earth.

You would not normally bang in an earth rod at your house when you have PME so this problem does not occur. However, if you take power to the shed and decide to drive your own earth rod, you should not connect it to the earth at the house.

In the above (broken neutral) scenario, what would happen is that all your, and your neighbours, electricity would flow down your connecting wire, into the rod by the shed and, finally, back to the transformer via the mass of the earth. Imagine how large a connecting wire you would need to handle all that current - basically the same as distributors neutral wire!

Even if you don't knock your own rod in, if you have, say, a copper water pipe supplying the shed and you bond your earth to it, that copper pipe effectively becomes your earth rod and has to handle all that current.

So, the general rule seems to be:-

It is OK to export the PME earth if there are NO extraneous paths to earth at the shed (and no rod, of course)

or

Just take live and neutral to the shed, and if using SWA, connect the wire shield to the house end ONLY (to protect the cable - remember, it is sheathed in plastic so the wire doesn't touch the earth). Bang in your rod and connect it the the shed wiring only.

As a side note, even the IEE don't trust PME! You must not export a PME earth to equipment used in conjunction with an outside swimming pool, a TT earth MUST be provided.

And after four glasses of wine, I hope all this waffle makes sense. :D

(Makes Specs' posts look positively tiny. :^O :^ O)

 
Further to my post yesterday, one of the main problems with exporting the PME is the use of metal switches and sockets etc and here's why.

If a neutral fault (like the one described above) develops, the potential on your house neutral (and internal earth) floats up towards the line voltage. The leccy comes into your house on your line conductor, goes through your fridge or freezer motor and onto your neutral conductor. After that, it has nowhere else to go (bit like water behind a dam although not really a good analogy).

From this, you can see that your combined earth and neutral are sitting at mains voltage (and nothing electrical is working) and so are your taps, radiators etc. Touching these will not harm you because the leccy may flow into you but still has nowhere to go. This is what the "equipotential zone" is all about. You are isolated from true earth so there is no return path for the current.

Now to the garden shed.

It is common in sheds and garages to use metalclad fittings so that DIY Bob won't wreck the electrics when he waves his ladder around. These fittings are connected to the local earth of the shed (or should be). If you have exported the PME to the shed, then the same thing happens as in the house. When there is a neutral fault, the potential on the local earth rises to mains voltage. Not a problem while you remain in the shed.

Now step out of your shed onto the damp grass, lean in and turn off the (metalclad) lightswitch.

You have just provided a connection to true earth via your body - you have just effectively become an earth rod!

So, if you do wish to use the PME then make sure you use plastic fittings in the shed.

 
Wow! Thanks special & springc. I've printed out your posts and will read them thoroughly. I've no doubt it will throw up further questions.

N

 
Thanks Slips - I wasn't Blushing, so I'll make the customer aware of this fact. Just off to see them now.

 
Right...

It's one of those newly built houses made of matchsticks! CU in a c/b off the hallway with the kitchen/utility area behind it. The owners have only lived there for 2 weeks, so don't really want all their pretty decor ruined, so the only option is to spur from the d/s ring.

They have a Legrand CU with a 100A main fuse - only 5 circuits plus 2 lighting circuits which are RCD protected. Wasn't able to do any more checks as it was pitch black (even the torch wasn't helping!) and getting late - so I told them I'd have to return to do further checks.

With such little info at this stage, am I able to give a rough cost estimate as I think the price of the job will determine whether or not they go ahead at the end of the day?

 
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