Sub Meter Question, Help Required

[Alice0606]

Hello everyone I'm new here, I'm just after a bit of advice and guidance if that's ok, hopefully posted in correct place.

I have currently taken on 2 commercial units to manage and rent out, there is currently incoming supply on the ground floor with a fuse board which will be running a car spraying garage and a further fuse board upstairs which controls office sockets, lights, boiler for what will be approximately 5 offices once refurbished. There is 1 meter which is on the ground floor by the incoming supply.

I'm looking to have a sub meter installed , however at present I have had 3 electrical contractors in and all told me different things which has left me with a headache as what to do.

If someone could be of some assistance in giving me advice I would appreciate it.

I have been told i need the following.

1. Incoming tails need to be removed g/f fuse board and put in a connector block (unsure of term they used)

2. From this connector block new tails will be installed to a switch fuse, and then from there to gf fuse board.

3. Also from connector block would be 25mm steel wire armour cable approx 45 metres up to 1st floor into a switch fuse, then from there would be meter tails to sub meter and sub meter to 1st floor fuse board.

4. What would happen to existing cable that goes to main switch on 1st floor fuse board? Surely this cable can be used?

Second company told me.

They would install as follows.

1. Disconnect tails to gf fuse board and use a connection block

2. Install 2 x switch fuses by gf fuse board

3. Run tails from switch fuse to gf fuse board

4. Connect steel wire armour cable from switch fuse to sub meter still on gf and then from sub meter run steel wire armour to 1st floor consumer unit.

5. Again what would happen to existing supply cable to 1st floor fuseboard

This way would make both main meter and sub meter be in same location.

The fuse board on the 1st floor I'm told has 16 fuses in use supplying power to many sockets, lights, communal toilets, communal kitchen, communal corridors , heating boiler etc etc

Both seem completely different approaches and both are coming in at approximately 1 thousand pound to install.

I'm confused and don't want to be ripped off and I'm hoping there is some individual on here that can point me in the right direction . This work is in Gloucestershire and the companies who have quoted are well known big companies but I'm confused as to who's doing what and if correct.

I have spoken to a self employed electrician from Cheltenham who is hoping to come take a look for me next week, however I don't want to confuse matters more as my heads pounding from information which changes every time I get someone to come and look.

I look forward to anyone's help, just looking for some pointers on who's basically doing the best way and if a rough estimate of £1000 sounds expensive as it does to me and being female I'm trying to make sure I'm not taken advantage of.

 

[steptoe]

sub meter?

is this a private meter or a proper electricity board meter that you are intending to fit?

remember that if it is a private meter there are certain rules regarding the selling of electricity, ie, you cant sell it on for a profit etc.

without actually seeing the job there is no real easy way to confirm your price, but as you have had 2 quotes in the same region then its perhaps not far away,

generally a self-employed electrician will be a little cheaper as they will have less overheads etc, but dont expect it to be half the price.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Gut feeling two independent quotes both near £1000 are probably quite accurate...

you mention the cable going up to the 1st floor?

Is this too small a cable for the load you are expecting to have...

So both quotes are upgrading it to a larger capacity?

 

[Alice0606]

I'm unsure exactly what meter, I have many done in the past on sites I have managed. Basically it's not to make profit from the company but as the whole building is on one main meter and there's 2 seperate companies in trying to make it so that each company only pay for what they use, this being Gf unit off existing Meter and then a sub meter installed just to have readings of what 1st floor use so they can be charged accordingly every quarter when they pay the lease.

I appreciate your advice , I understand its hard to determine what needs doing with out seeing the place.

Special location, I'm unsure on size of cable, all I know is there's a fuse board up there which I'm guessing is similar to my house so would have meter tails, again I could be wrong

Yes I have been told cable needs running to existing fuse board on 1st floor, unsure why or if there's a reason this can't be split in order to add sub meter. Unfortunately I only manage property lets

It's not really a issue with price to be honest as will be worth doing, just both seem to have completely seperate ways of carrying out the work and I am worried about having the work done and both downstairs and upstairs still coming off main meter as surely both ways can't be right.

May have to wait till this electrician from cheltenham can get me

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

You say they are quoting for 45m of 25mm SWA cable?

just as a reference figure to help you asses costs...

one national supplier would charge you £360+ for 50m of 16mm SWA  (a smaller gauge cable) 

http://www.screwfix.com/p/prysmian-lv-armoured-3-core-black-16mm-50m-cable-reel/47175

So your 25mm is going to cost more and with all of your other bits, 

connectors, switch fuses, meters  fixings etc..   it will soon mount up on the old costs....

.

 

[Alice0606]

Thanks for that special location, I can see where the price is coming from then. I'm only able to say what I have taken from there written estimate which doesn't clearly say much

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

carrying out the work and I am worried about having the work done and both downstairs and upstairs still coming off main meter as surely both ways can't be right.

There are always multiple ways to do electrical work safely and in compliance with all appropriate regs.....

Looks like your key point is about the actual metering...

As you are not licensed or allowed to sell electricity yourself...

The initial incoming point to the building must be connected to an approved calibrated meter supplied and maintained by official metering company..  

So you cannot by-pass this with you own separate meter to either of the floors..

You can have secondary meters to help you work out how the overall bill has been split

But if you want true individual metering I think you would have to apply for a new incoming supply...

Unless I have missed something and one of the other forum members will be along later to correct me?

:coffee

 

[Alice0606]

That has helped clear something up that has worried me, I asked the one company why they were splitting the incoming supply before the main meter, and they did that's how it had to be done, but previously when I've had some installed the tails have Allways been split after the main meter so not to tamper with the electric supply companies meter. Therefore I feel one of the companies is not carrying something out correctly . From what I can find out from a electrician in used before who's very very busy

1. Leave feed to main meter

2. Split tails after main meter in suitable connection block.

3. Connect tails from there to existing gf fuse board

4. Run suitable cable to 1st floor (he thinks 25mm swa may be to big) but again can't confirm till he's seen it.

5. Terminate into switch fuse on 1st floor

6. Install tails from switch fuse to 1st floor fuse board.

Can I add once again , thank you for your help .

 

[ProDave]

Okay I've read this a few times.

The bit I can't get my head round is WHY do you need a new feed to the first floor?

There MUST be a cable there already?

Why can't you just get an electrician to connect the two meters one next to each existing distribution board, but using the existing cables?

Is there any particular reason why the meters must be together, which seems to be the bit triggering the installation of a new cable?

Having said that, a 3 phase electricity meter is likely to cost at least £100, so there's £200 of your bill already before any work is done. So £200 for the meters, £500 for the cable, then £300 for the work sounds very very reasonable.

(as it happens I'm looking into a very similar thing and proposing individual meters next to each distribution board)

 

[Alice0606]

Hi , I've no idea why they are proposing a new cable , as obviously there is all ready a feed to existing 1st floor , I wondered if its because they cant find where it comes up to 1st floor as comes in through back of fuse board so therefore they would need to run a new one maybe? Just an idea and about only thing I can think off.

 

[steptoe]

a couple of reasons for needing a new cable may be,

undersize for expected load,

not an armoured cable, and therefore, may require RCD protection, not much use if it trips out and the upstairs tenant needs to reset it in the downstairs property.

there could be a whole host of other reasons, but I would think the 2nd one is the most probable.

 

[Alice0606]

Is it possible to be overloaded when the property has had no problems and also recently had a periodic test carried out on it I believe ?

Thanks for all suggestions though, gives me some information to ask before getting works done to make sure I'm only paying for what we need.

Many thanks

 

[Steve3948]

You say in 1st post, 5 new Offices so whats there now. I would think as Steps has said undersized for proposed new requiements.

 

[Alice0606]

Sorry for confusion, it's Allready split into 5 small offices, each with sockets and lights , each office has its own fuse for lights and own fuse for sockets plus a fuse for kitchen ring, cooker ring then a fuse for lights in communal corridor and toilets . We are just going to be decorating them and having this sub meter installed, I think it's just a case of contractor can't see where the cable comes upto 1st floor so he can't use that existing cable for sub meter . Maybe in the fabric of the walls I am guessing .

I've Allways just had incoming supply to fuse board disconnected and sub meter installed and then new tails from sub meter to fuseboard plus any earth upgraded if required.

Is it possible to upload pictures? I'm going to meet water board tomorrow and could take some pictures of existing layout if needed. To give a better idea or is it just worth waiting for this electrician from cheltenham to come when he can and look?

 

[Alice0606]

Ok will post pictures tomorrow once I'm in site and have finished with water board, will also take a copy of quotes . I will try to label pictures clearly so you can see what's what and where.

 

[Alice0606]

Ok will do, just thought if I post few bits if might hopefully give you all a better idea of what I need and what I'm being told . Thank you very much for taking your time to help me

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

You may not be able to upload any pics yourself as you are new here. I am sure someone here  will volunteer for you  to  send them  to  them to upload.

 

[SLIPSHOD & SLAPDASH]

I have been reading the various replies and thought i would ask a few questions no one else has,

A) Is the existing supply & meter  electric company (DNO)  property, or is the unit part of a larger complex and the meter is already the landlords.

B) Is the existing ground floor meter & supply in the unit which will become a garage or is it in a common area.

C) Will the garage be self contained or will any areas be shared with the office such as toilets, kitchen, corridors, car park lighting etc. 

If there are any shared areas you may have to fit 3 meters after the supply one as one would be needed for landlord stuff or at least a separate fusebox direct from the supply meter . If the existing meter is in a common area you may be able to have additional meters fitted by the supply company so not your responsibility.

 

[Alice0606]

Hi, I have had my maintenance man have a quick look at this today, he has said he can see the incoming tails above te false ceiling tiles to the 1st floor fuse board, the ideally the electrician shouldn't have any problems disconnecting them and adding a sub better with out a new cable .

The existing meter is in what will be the car garage and is completely seperate and does not share the communal areas. Only thing they share is a main entrance door , but that is it. There fore the garage is self contained.

I have been told the meter is the one that belongs to supply company. I have uploaded some pictures to my photo bucket account , here's the link but not sure what I was supposed to be taking pictures off or if link will work. The fuse board image is the 1st floor an the rest is existing downstairs in garage. http://s1337.beta.photobucket.com/user/Alicec0606/library/?

Sub meter even, not sub better

 

[ProDave]

You need to zoom out somewhat on those photo's.  It's the existing electricity meter and the wires feeding it that are of interest, as well as any other visible cables going into the upstairs distribution board.