Thoughts on heat recovery

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Phoenix

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Just wondered if any of you have had any dealings with heat recovery in older properties.

I live in a bungalow of which the original part is over 100 years old, which has been extended many times since. I have a mixture of stone walls, brick walls without cavity, and in the more modern end cavity walls with insulation. As you can guess its not going to be air tight, I've got things like a disused chimney which needs to breathe, etc.

I get some problems with condensation, not massive ones, normally around the windows, this is probably due to opening the windows a bit even in winter(othersie this would be worse). Obviously this lets some of the heat out.

I was initially looking at possitive input ventilation, however looking at the costs of this, rather than having a fan forcing cold outside air into my hallway. The cheaper heat recovery units are not much more, however general wisdom is that they are not suitable for non - air tight places, as when you are sucking stale wet air out of bathrooms and kitchens, cold outside air gets drawn back into these rooms through the gaps in the structure, reducing the energy saving the unit gives.  I can understand the logic of that. However, while there is no way it will acheive the green savings it does in a modern property, surley blowing in air pre-heated with recovered heat and also accepting that there is ggoing to be some unheated air also drawn in, is going to be better than purposly blowing in outside air and then sucking air out with standard extract fans in the bathrooms (as would be the case with PIV). Or as I am doing now, m,aking sure windows get opened on a regular basis to make sure air gets circulated?

Anyone have any experience of this? What am I missing... is there any reason I shouldn't go with heat recovery inside of possible presure ventilation to achieve air changes?

 
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An MVHR (Mechanical Ventilation with Heat Recovery) unit is what you are looking at.

I am in the process of building a very well insulated, very well sealed house that will have an MVHR system.  Once you get to a certain level of insulation and air tightness in a house, it is the ventilation heat loss that dominates your heating bills as heat loss through the insulated fabric of the building is minimal.  That's when an MVHR unit is usually specified as it allows you to reduce the heating bills still further.

your situation is different. Your heat losses through the walls and draughts will be massive, so I doubt installing an MVHR will save you much on your heating bills. but if I am reading correctly, it is not a saving you are after but better air quality and less condensation.

I suspect with the cold walls, you will need a ventilation rate somewhat higher than you would specify for a modern house of the same size, so don't be afraid to over size such a unit.

I suspect it will improve the air quality but not make much saving in heating bills.  you need to combine it with doing as much as you can to seal up air leaks in the building, squirty foam is a good start e.g where pipes come through floor boards etc
 

 
it is not a saving you are after but better air quality and less condensation.


That is correct. Although I do perhaps there will come a little saving... as I will be swapping opening the windows and letting in cold air so much, with ventilating with slightly pre-heated air.

But yes, I need to fit 'something' to improve ventilation as a) we have a minor condensation problem (which would be much worse if I stopped opening the windows) and b) While I haven't had any assessments done, this area does come up on searches as being a radon risk area (village is on a limestone heath).

I am not sure how much I can do to improve air tightness..... things like the dis-used chimney, well there needs to be a bit of air flow through it or it will suffer damp etc.

I am making improvements with insulation, I have got kingspan/cellotex to go on the lounge wall to reduce heat less and stop it being a cold spot. I have also got to address some issues in the loft... above teh spare bedroom the glass fibre didn't go all the wall to edge of teh plasterboard (about 3 inch gap left). Then it was topped up sometime in the past by 150mm of insulation rolled at 90 degress, and of course that doesn't cover it either as due to the pitch of the roof and not blocking the edges. So I have got that thin strip of plasterboard being cooled by the draught from the edves.... I kept getting mould up there....It wasn't until I was messing about with a thermal camera that I discovered why.... there was a long black strip shown on the image!

 
Thats an excellent post from ProDave  and I have to say , the difference between an older property and one with all the modern insulation in is massive.

I'm no expert on heat recovery but agree with Dave , you'res is a different situation .    Just wondering if the trickle vents are missing from your double glazing? 

And I susspect if you sealed the house up tight as a drum you'd have rampant condensation , so need to take care in what you do .

 
Part of my brothers house is single skin dressed stone and when he renovated it he added kingspan /celotex to the walls... however he built a stud wall and left a cavity between them as well as using a breathable membrane

 
A friend of mine has just built a passive-house, it has to have MVHR to avoid asphixiation.... His house also has no central heating at all, just a few electric rads for very cold days, so saved a small fortune on gas boilers etc etc

You can get +ve pressure fans with heating elements to pre-warm incoming air. I've seen 3 fitted over the years, 2 in big Victorian houses where they did ****** all, and 1 in a 70s bungalow, (cavity walls but being concrete blocks still prone to cold spots even with cavity insualtion), where the owner thought it was so good he recommended it to his neighbours

 
If you have an mvhr unit, probably the easiest way is an electric heater unit in the inlet duct.  Our house will have Under Floor heating only downstairs, and a 3KW wood burning stove, and even at that low power everyone tells me it will overheat the house.
 

 
Thanks to all for your reponses, especially ProDave,

I've not really had much chance to post back here, I've idlely browsed while on my Laptop while eating dinner (not one of my finer habbits!), but typing while eating isn't  going to happen, and then normally I've got watching TV before falling asleep in front of it!

I can’t help but think the kingspan is a bad idea, what is going to happen to the damp in the walls behind it?


Tony, That was one of my concerns, and a while back i did spend a while on the internet looking at the best way to do it. I came across what is called the warm batten method. Which basically entails covering the wall in kingspan that has the foil vapour barrier on it. But leaving a 15mm permiter border Taping the joints with foil tape. The 15mm border is then filled with squirty foam to make sure the edges are sealed... I presume the logic is... no gap, and no air path through = no where for moisure to get in or go?. Then 25mm tanalised roofing battens are fixed on the inside (the warm side battens). The gaps are infilled with 25mm kingspan to further increase insulation. and then plasterboard is fixed over the battens

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/internal-wall-insulation/

 
Talking of heart recovery, I haver just bought the mvhr unit for my new house. Brand new and unused, still on it's pallet for £350. Someone bought it but then opted for a complete packaged system so didn't use it.  It's being delivered tomorrow.

The modern way of building houses is to insulate and seal the walls, usually with a complete air tightness membrane. Then batten the walls to leave a 25mm service void before the plasterboard goes on.  This ensures all cables, pipes etc are wholey inside the air tight envelope of the house and moisture from within the house cannot get into the walls and insulation.
 

 
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