Which came first.. the chicken OR the egg?

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Whilst trying to locate the stop tap, to verify bonding connections, at a customers the otherday.....

I slid out a dishwasher next to a sink unit... didn't find the tap there..

but I did notice a sign of some melting on the back of the DW..

Pic 1 (the chicken)

The back of the DW... with melted groove!

Pic 2 (the egg)

2.5mm T&E running at back of DW with a bit of black along part of the sheath.

So I was wondering... which is the most probable cause for the melting?? ?:|

A] Cable overheats... melts back of DW?

B] Back of DW gets warm & soft.. moulds around cable?

C] Combination of both?

some other facts...

From what I could establish the cable is part of a radial circuit. OR a spur off a spur off a ring!!!

Going to the right is a double socket on the worktop with a kettle plugged in..

To the left is a single socket under the sink that the DW plugs into... (also the fuse box would be toward the left)

Fuse box is an old Wylex with some wire 3036's and a couple of plug-in 60898's (2 x lights.)

3036's should read 1361's....But I am not going to change it completely...

cuz it could make the first line of seajayess' post look a bit daft..

and twas me with the Worzel Ponker head on!

After pondering for a while.... and not really reaching a conclusion...

Thought I would post it on here for your thoughts gents??

any consensus of opionion?.. ?:|

 

[seajayess]

Strange one if this is a spur off a spur then with the use of 3036 possibly on 30 A the current would be to great for the cable if it is 2.5mm T/E. But you say that the D/W is plugged into a socket on the left of the D/W and the CU is also on the left side of the D/W so the current being drawn by the D/W isnt actualy going through the cable behind the D/W. Wouldnt have thought the D/W would get that hot at the back, What else is plugged into the double socket on the worktop where the kettle is. CJS hope this makes sense

 

[kme]

S:

I would be VERY surprised if the DW generated enough heat for that sort of effect. I would expect to see other signs of it on the back panel.

Doesn`t actually matter whether its pure radial, or spur from ring. If CU is to one side, and socket with kettle is to the other, that cable may well run rather warm, especially if they have a toaster or summat that they plug in next to it?

The back of the DW will get warm, and the cable will have difficulty dissipating its heat.

So, my answer would be the cable, exascerbated by the increased ambient temperature behind the DW.

?:| ? :| ?:|B)B)

 

[Flying Scotsman]

S:So, my answer would be the cable, exascerbated by the increased ambient temperature behind the DW.

?:| ? :| ?:|B)B)

my exact thoughts ] ] :^O :^O B)

 

[kme]

my exact thoughts ] ] :^O :^O B)

But of course! I wouldn`t have expected anything else] ] ] ]B)

 

[kme]

Come on Special - don`t take all night replying

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Strange one if this is a spur off a spur then with the use of 3036 possibly on 30 A the current would be to great for the cable if it is 2.5mm T/E. But you say that the D/W is plugged into a socket on the left of the D/W and the CU is also on the left side of the D/W so the current being drawn by the D/W isnt actualy going through the cable behind the D/W. Wouldnt have thought the D/W would get that hot at the back, What else is plugged into the double socket on the worktop where the kettle is. CJS hope this makes sense

these were my thoughts also??

Me thinks perhaps a toaster has been plugged in at the same time as the kettle??

Maybe even when the DW running?

DW plug is no more than 10inches to the left of the black bit on the cable!

Maybe some heat at DW point PLUS whatever is plugged into double socket!? ?:|

I had assumed part of the function of the insulation on the DW was to keep the water inside nice and hot... and stop heat getting out?

Bit like an immersion heater jacket.. Hot on the inside... cool on the outside! ?:|

S:I would be VERY surprised if the DW generated enough heat for that sort of effect. I would expect to see other signs of it on the back panel.

Doesn`t actually matter whether its pure radial, or spur from ring. If CU is to one side, and socket with kettle is to the other, that cable may well run rather warm, especially if they have a toaster or summat that they plug in next to it?

The back of the DW will get warm, and the cable will have difficulty dissipating its heat.So, my answer would be the cable, exascerbated by the increased ambient temperature behind the DW.

?:| ? :| ?:|B)B)

Indeed the DW was a snug fit under the worktop.. not much room for heat to dissipate?

I think the Cable is the prime factor with DW providing secondary obstacles to cable dissipating its heat!

It just looked as though quite a bit of heat as occurred at some point!

Even something as simple as dropping the cable down the wall.. sort of plinth height? may give more air flow.

However..

This wasn't anything directly to do with the work I was involved with..

so didn't spend much time looking or investigating..

Just though I'll take some pic's before replacing DW in its slot...

get my work done.. then advise customer of my findings later..

(one of those jobs where I had been given the key.. customer at work..

so couldn't show them what I found)

I shall drop a note round next week suggesting a bit of further investigation may be appropraite....

I was just trying to decide what to suggest as the most likely cause?

Always good to have second.. third, fouth..... etc.. opinion.

Cheers guys:x

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Come on Special - don`t take all night replying

REMEMBER I ONLY HAVE ONE THUMB!!!

Have to put me big toe on the shift button to get caps on!!!

:^O :^O:^O:^O

Oh and had to go and top up me beer & get some more nibbles!!! ] ]

 

[kme]

I was just trying to decide what to suggest as the most likely cause?

Constipated chicken, I would assume. :^O :^O:^O:^O

 

[kme]

top up me beer & get some more nibbles!!!

Crackin` idea gromit. B bak inabit

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

my exact thoughts ] ] :^O :^O B)

I Have also got a photo of the CU...

wot I forgot to load on...

Give me a few ticks and I shall post it up for you to laugh at!!!

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Heres some more pics...

Oh I correct my earlier post...

1361's NOT 3036's doh!

(auto - beer - pilot took the wrong coordinates again!! :| )

The box... no circuit labels?

The rats nest.. open top cabriolet version

That 4th circuit from the right has a few wires bunged in it?

Not the healthiest of boards? :|

 

[Flying Scotsman]

stop laughing at my handy work X( :_| :_| :_| :_| :_| the scotsman is not happy at that.

:_| :_| :_|

 

[Bclearnersparks]

Hi Special

Just out of interest what fuse is that cct supplied from?

Shame the regs havent made it compulsory to label/ number each conductor at the consumer unit; would make testing alot easier back at the CU and it would nt take that long to label each conductor

Is that 6mm on a 45a fuse as well? Shower?

Me thinks load of work their for you mate if customer agrees

 

[a1]

The rats nest.. open top cabriolet version

Look at the neutral incomer.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

Hi SpecialJust out of interest what fuse is that cct supplied from?

Howdy Bclearnersparks....

I would like to know that myself??? ?:|

Shame the regs haven't made it compulsory to label/ number each conductor at the consumer unit; would make testing alot easier back at the CU and it would nt take that long to label each conductor

Is that 6mm on a 45a fuse as well? Shower?

Me thinks load of work their for you mate if customer agrees

Yep 45a & 6.0mm & new shower installed by...

"Professional bathroom fitters!" within the past 18mnths or 2yrs Max!!!

No RCD on any part of the installation??? X(

I am 90% certain the bathroom.. electric alterations were not notified for Part P & no Elec cert provided! ?:|

Not even any sign of last inspection .. if any???

I was only there doin some accessory replacements..

couple of lights & dimmers etc..

No wiring alterations...

and I couldn't hang around cuz needed to get to another appointment!

I was curious trying to see if there was earth bonding to water pipe..

to see if bathroom boys had even checked that??? X(

I am not holding my breath! :|

I personally think it needs either..

A] CU upgrade then test & identify all circuits to identify any other anomalies.

B] Full PIR to get a true picture of whats whats.. especially the "warm" cable ciruit... (I'd like to open up the DW & Kettle sockets see if any signs of heating on insulation in there?)

I shall write.. post.... & wait and see?? ?:|

Tis all one can do

 

[Bclearnersparks]

Good luck,

hope you get a positive outcome from your customer.

 

[Theorysparky]

Howdy Bclearnersparks....I would like to know that myself??? ?:|

Is that 6mm on a 45a fuse as well? Shower?

Me thinks load of work their for you mate if customer agrees

Yep 45a & 6.0mm & new shower installed by...

"Professional bathroom fitters!" within the past 18mnths or 2yrs Max!!!

No RCD on any part of the installation??? X(

I am 90% certain the bathroom.. electric alterations were not notified for Part P & no Elec cert provided! ?:|

Not even any sign of last inspection .. if any???

I was only there doin some accessory replacements..

couple of lights & dimmers etc..

No wiring alterations...

and I couldn't hang around cuz needed to get to another appointment!

I was curious trying to see if there was earth bonding to water pipe..

to see if bathroom boys had even checked that??? X(

I am not holding my breath! :|

I personally think it needs either..

A] CU upgrade then test & identify all circuits to identify any other anomalies.

B] Full PIR to get a true picture of whats whats.. especially the "warm" cable ciruit... (I'd like to open up the DW & Kettle sockets see if any signs of heating on insulation in there?)

I shall write.. post.... & wait and see?? ?:|

Tis all one can do

i would test and identify before the cu change always

 

[steptoe]

Hi SpecialJust out of interest what fuse is that cct supplied from?

Shame the regs havent made it compulsory to label/ number each conductor at the consumer unit; would make testing alot easier back at the CU and it would nt take that long to label each conductor

Is that 6mm on a 45a fuse as well? Shower?

Me thinks load of work their for you mate if customer agrees

err,!!!!!

actually,

its required on the 16th,

conductors identified......

 

[The Godfather]

Re: Which came first.. the chicken OR the egg?

Well, I had a chat with my boys, on this issue, and after a very brief consultation, they agreed. That after one of their visits the egg came second.

Don