Ring or spur, no, it's a debate about AFDD's

SPECIAL LOCATION · Aug 29, 2024

John Burns said:
You are just going by what the regs say, which do say they recommend AFDDs on all socket circuits.

I think you forget to mention the other bit that the regs say......
e.g. "Recommend" see page 18... This is one of several possibilities without mentioning or excluding others.

i.e. It is NOT essential and it is NOT a requirement for the type of installation that the OP is enquiring about..

All you appear to be doing is taking another thread Off-Topic, without any constructive advice to the original question...

You are perfectly within your rights to state how much you like AFDD's and how many times you have installed them..
and how much safer you think they make your circuits... BUT.... they are NOT required for this alteration. FACT!

And to state that you consider them essential only illustrates a limited real-world experience of typical domestic installations.

Plus other equally, (or more), competent, trained, skilled, experienced, knowledgeable, qualified persons.. (some of whom may be on this forum).. are also able to design, install, test, inspect, certify and/or advise others about circuit additions & alterations that fully comply with BS7671 and meet ALL of the fundamental principals summarised in Chapter 13, for safe electrical installations that will not endanger people property or livestock... (which is the root foundation for the rest of BS7671)... without agreeing with your personal preferences..

It is best to keep answers to BS7671 fact.. Rather than any personal preferences....

Otherwise we could end up with people saying garage electrical alterations should be done in a mini-skirt, wearing roller-skates, dancing the birdie-song, playing Bert Weedon easy guitar chords, and eating a Greggs sausage roll... because that is what they find comforting!!!

UNG · Aug 30, 2024

John Burns said:
My AFDD has not done no such things. They are not useless and actually do what they say they do.

What real world actual proof do you have that it is or are you just making an assumption

The US has been using AFCI's for many years and they don't get many if any good reports

John Burns · Aug 30, 2024

SPECIAL LOCATION said:
I think you forget to mention the other bit that the regs say......
e.g. "Recommend" see page 18... This is one of several possibilities without mentioning or excluding others.

i.e. It is NOT essential and it is NOT a requirement for the type of installation that the OP is enquiring about..

All you appear to be doing is taking another thread Off-Topic, without any constructive advice to the original question...

You are perfectly within your rights to state how much you like AFDD's and how many times you have installed them..
and how much safer you think they make your circuits... BUT.... they are NOT required for this alteration. FACT!

And to state that you consider them essential only illustrates a limited real-world experience of typical domestic installations.

Plus other equally, (or more), competent, trained, skilled, experienced, knowledgeable, qualified persons.. (some of whom may be on this forum).. are also able to design, install, test, inspect, certify and/or advise others about circuit additions & alterations that fully comply with BS7671 and meet ALL of the fundamental principals summarised in Chapter 13, for safe electrical installations that will not endanger people property or livestock... (which is the root foundation for the rest of BS7671)... without agreeing with your personal preferences..

It is best to keep answers to BS7671 fact.. Rather than any personal preferences....

Otherwise we could end up with people saying garage electrical alterations should be done in a mini-skirt, wearing roller-skates, dancing the birdie-song, playing Bert Weedon easy guitar chords, and eating a Greggs sausage roll... because that is what they find comforting!!!

The original post:
Hi, I have an existing spur going to my garage to an old fuse box which supply's one socket and a light. I want to add another 3 double sockets, one one each wall. Is there any advantage in making this a ring back to the fuse box when it's on a spur from the house?

1) The old garage box is best being replaced.
2) The garage is on a spur.
3) He is asking is there an advantage in taking the garage feed back to the Consumer unit.

i) Best replace the old garage fuse box with new a garage unit with circuits for lights and sockets - obvious.
ii) It is clearly better all around taking the garage supply back to the CU. Divide and rule by giving it its own circuit.
iii) Additionally while doing this work, it is best to have the best protection.
Iv) Good protection is RCBO or the best, AFDD.

That is the way he should go having a safe and sound garage setup.

John Burns · Aug 30, 2024

UNG said:
What real world actual proof do you have that it is or are you just making an assumption

The US has been using AFCI's for many years and they don't get many if any good reports

I have experience of US systems. It is like going back to the 1940/50s. They have two voltages run into a domestic house, with separate sockets for each, and receptacles (sockets and plugs) that are terrifying. Wirenuts are common - no kidding. Their appliances, especially the legacy laundry appliances are built down to a price, and fully of old hat crude heavy switches and contacts which can cause an arc. They have no switches on the sockets - antiquated being introduced in 1919. They pull the appliance cord to remove the plug causing arcs. You can see the flash as they pull the cord out.

The 120v side of the system draws 25A for a 3kW appliance, UK is about 13A, which makes matters worse as there are heavy current draws.

AFDDs work. BTW, they have a test button. Do not go on myth.

binky · Aug 30, 2024

John Burns said:
Yes a Heath Robinson testing affair. Makers all say there is a difference between an arc and spark.

not seen that video, but AFDDs have been proven not to work well on ring circuits.

UNG · Aug 30, 2024

John Burns said:
AFDDs work. BTW, they have a test button.

RCD's and RCBO's have a test button but on closer inspection with the appropriate tester they can be found to be out of spec like many I have found over many years in one case an RCD I had fitted 6 months earlier which tested ok when installed didn't test ok when I was doing some other work at the property

Until I can add a sensibly priced AFDD tester to my arsenal of test kit and definitively prove it's functionality externally then I don't see the value in having one yes it has a test button but does that sufficiently prove it is working and will work if an arc of the correct pre programmed signature and magnitude occurs

John Burns said:
Do not go on myth.

I don't unlike you with the total blind faith that you run with

John Burns · Aug 30, 2024

UNG said:
RCD's and RCBO's have a test button but on closer inspection with the appropriate tester they can be found to be out of spec like many I have found over many years in one case an RCD I had fitted 6 months earlier which tested ok when installed didn't test ok when I was doing some other work at the property

Until I can add a sensibly priced AFDD tester to my arsenal of test kit and definitively prove it's functionality externally then I don't see the value in having one yes it has a test button but does that sufficiently prove it is working and will work if an arc of the correct pre programmed signature and magnitude occurs

I don't unlike you with the total blind faith that you run with

AFDDs work. Do not go on myth.

John Burns · Aug 30, 2024

binky said:
not seen that video, but AFDDs have been proven not to work well on ring circuits.

Source? proof?

UNG · Aug 31, 2024

John Burns said:
AFDDs work. Do not go on myth.

Where is your

John Burns said:
Source? proof?

That they do

John Burns · Aug 31, 2024

UNG said:
Where is your

That they do

AFDDS are mandatory in a number of situations and recommend by the regs. They have been on sale for a number of years now with 100,000 of them being fitted. The onus is on you substantial your accusations. Use only professional attributed sources please.

Murdoch · Aug 31, 2024

John Burns said:
AFDDS are mandatory in a number of situations and recommend by the regs. They have been on sale for a number of years now with 100,000 of them being fitted. The onus is on you substantial you accusations.

Mandatory in some situations ................... recommend does not mean necessary AND lots of CU's can't accommodate them so you recommend a new CU too?

John Burns · Aug 31, 2024

Sharpen up. In many mandatory situation a new CU will be needed. Where recommended it is then a valued judgement to fit a new CU - if one is needed of course.

BTW, a side issue: a CU that cannot accommodate an AFDD cannot hold an RCBO either. Such a unit is worthy of replacement.

Murdoch · Aug 31, 2024

John Burns said:
Sharpen up. In any mandatory situation a new CU will be needed.

WRONG

Lots of more recent CU's can accommodate AFDD's

John Burns · Aug 31, 2024

RIGHT! If the CU cannot hold an AFDD in situations where they are mandatory, it will need replacing, or a separate unit installed. The AFDD must be fitted irrespective.

John Burns · Aug 31, 2024

Back on topic, all the points I recommended in post 25 matter:

https://electricianforum.co.uk/threads/garage-ring-or-spur.57629/post-557415i

Murdoch · Aug 31, 2024

John Burns said:
RIGHT! If the CU cannot hold an AFDD in situations where they are mandatory, it will need replacing, or a separate unit installed.

That's better and far less misleading for people viewing this thread.

John Burns · Aug 31, 2024

What I wrote was clearly obvious. If an AFDD is mandatory then it must be accommodated no matter how. They should be fitted in normal practice, as RCDs were at one time, as AFDDs are recommended on all socket circuits by the regs. Also a responsible electrician would fit an AFDD on a heavy current appliance such as a shower were scorch marks and meting insulation are seen regularly on the connection terminals.

Murdoch · Aug 31, 2024

John Burns said:
What I wrote was clearly obvious. If an AFDD is mandatory then it must be accommodated no matter how. They should be fitted in normal practice, as RCDs were at one time, as AFDDs are recommended on all socket circuits by the regs. Also a responsible electrician would fit an AFDD on a heavy current appliance such as a shower were scorch marks and meting insulation are seen regularly on the connection terminals.

Recommend does not say must be FITTED

So for clarity for poor homeowners any spark saying that they are recommended and must be fitted should be shown the door .......

As for showers , HUM, older boards trip when the insulation melts and creates a short.

Thread unlocked, John Burns will not be replying.

binky · Aug 31, 2024

John Burns said:
Source? proof?

https://elecsafety.co.uk/arc-fault-detection-devices-afdds/

michael8554 · Aug 31, 2024

Is there any advantage in making this a ring back to the fuse box when it's on a spur from the house?

I believe that he wants to add more sockets to the spur in the garage, and extend the last socket back to the fuse box in the garage, to make it a ring ?

Ring or spur, no, it's a debate about AFDD's

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