Advice On Imported Chinese Machinery With No Documentation.

[pewter]

After advice for a friend,

Short story

He has been sold equipment by a UK company. Equipment has no documentation,no CE mark, no voltage information or power consumption, Chinese writing.

It is not working correctly and he is trying to get refunded.

What should electrical equipment have by law when sold in the UK?

Long Story

My friend bought some silk screen printing equipment, cost around £6000 i think. (bought with a credit card)

equipment and brief description of what i saw when having a quick look.

Tunnel dryer -

electric 16A commando socket, has conveyor belt to take shirts under something to dry it. I noticed under the conveyor belt (mesh type)  i can see all electrical connections, live terminals etc, not able to touch but not IP4X for top entry. No CE mark, no info on its voltage or consumption.

Spot dryer -

Electric 13A socket. Cable entry through brass stuffing gland (i think was loose). No CE mark , no info on voltage or consumption.

Light box thingy -

Electric 13A socket. Has a socket on the back to plug in over head light, the socket on the back is one of those types that any Euro, Asien, American plug will fit. There is no covers where the pins would go, so live parts are recessed only a few mm. I dont think my fat fingers could make contact but could easily be touched with screwdriver.  No CE mark, no voltage information.

Screen printing rotary table-

Not electric, bearing is wonky so it does not rotate correctly, screens dont line up on pins correctly. This puts colours out when doing more then 1 colour. No markings on equipment.

He has approached the seller who has not been very helpful. He offered a £2800 refund to take equipment back. My friend was after a full refund. My friend has been trying to resolve the problems, the seller has now become angry and hostile (swearing and not wanting to discuss the issues). Seller has said 'its all checked by Browns electrical' no mention of official product testing. He has still not issued an invoice for the equipment.

I pointed him towards government website with guide to buying to machinery having CE mark etc. (which he should have read before buying). http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg271.pdf

He has contacted BSI asking them if equipment should have CE mark, power info as the document reads as if everything electrical should. They have told him it does not have to have it. They have told him to contact trading standards and Citizens Advice Consumer Service.

He is now trying to find out what electric machinery should have by Law when sold in the UK.

Any advice, info, links to other documents or cases would be great help.

 

[Manator]

How much cheaper is this equipment in comparison with reputable sellers? I think therein may lay the answer.

 

[pewter]

I have no doubt its cheap cr@p, and you get what you pay for. I think he should have researched all this before buying it.

 I pointed him towards that link thanks Canoe, and they way i read it i thought it would have to have CE mark. When he contacted BSI they told him it did not have to have it. He spoke on phone and this is email they sent him.

BSI publishes and sells British Standards, which are intended as codes of practice and are published for voluntary use. Whilst these might support UK legislation and regulation, they have in themselves no regulatory status. Therefore the application of a standard is a contractual matter between the parties concerned, unless mandated by national or European regulation.
 
The company may not have been working to British Standards. I would recommend contacting the company to ascertain which, if any, standards they were working to.
 
If you feel there is an issue with poor installation or quality, please contact the Citizens Advice Consumer Service. They provide free, confidential and impartial advice on consumer issues.  
 
In cases of reported criminal behaviour, for example, scams, unsafe goods and rogue traders, the Citizens Advice consumer service will refer your details to the relevant local authority trading standards service who will  decide on what to do next.
 
You can look on www.adviceguide.org.uk or call the Citizens Advice consumer helpline on 08454 04 05 06.
 
Unfortunately we are not able to give interpretations or advice on technical requirements in standards, as we do not have the technical expertise within the Knowledge Centre or BSI.  The committee members who develop standards are representatives of various professional bodies and associations and they do not actually work for BSI.
It is the responsibility of the user to decide exactly what it is saying, informed, if necessary, by professional advice or the informed opinion of others working in the same field.  Please see FAQs (frequently asked questions) on our website for further information.
 
Please be aware that British Standards are published for voluntary use. Whilst these might support UK legislation and regulation, they have in themselves no regulatory status.  BSI Standards Limited is not a regulatory or government body. Therefore the application of a standard is a contractual matter between the parties concerned, unless mandated by national or European regulation. You can find further information about UK legislation at http://www.opsi.gov.uk/legislation/about_legislation.htm and European legislation at http://eur-lex.europa.eu/en/index.htm.
 
You might also wish to seek guidance from a trade or professional association or other suitably qualified professional.
 
This link provides a lot of background information on CE marking: http://www.bsigroup.co.uk/en-GB/our-services/product-certification/ce-mark/ce-mark-frequently-asked-questions/
 
Please let me know if you require any further clarification or information about this and I will be happy to help.

 

[Apache]

How long has he had them? Claim the money back via the credit card company.

 

[steptoe]

Jaysus, seems bsi are about as much use as the scams, as long as you don't use our logo without permission we can/will do nothing.....

 

[pewter]

He bought them with the card for back up, and plans to contact the card company.

I am not sure when he bought them 40-90 days ago.  ( i will check)

When i first saw the machinery i pointed out the lack of CE mark, info etc.

He is now trying to find out if it has been sold illegally before he contacts card company, or goes legal route for a refund.

 

[Apache]

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/problem/can-i-claim-on-my-credit-card-when-something-goes-wrong

 

[Sidewinder]

It is the responsibility of the seller to ensure that equipment sold in the EU, meets the requirements for sale, under the MD, EMCD, & LVD.

Look up supply of machinery on the bis.gov.uk & hse.gov.uk sites.

It is the responsibility of the user to ensure that the equipment is safe for their users under PUWER98.

I suspect that laws have been broken.

Steps, it's not the responsibility of BSI to comment on individual cases.

This could be a long and tortuous, and expensive path, but, he must move quickly.

HSE, may help, as long as his employees have not and are not using the equipment yet.

Else I genuinely have contacts in the CE marking consultancy game.

 

[OnOff]

I've been involved with importing "foreign" kit from NZ & Aus. In order to CE mark the kit, amongst other things we had to submit a Technical File to an "approved body" - we used Royal Sun Alliance in Manchester. The Technical File, includes all the various design calcs, materials etc and shows that the kit had been designed to comply with "our" BS/EN requirements. I don't what they do with the file other than they hold it for 10 years (for a fat fee) - guess it's just "available" in the case of an incident.The manufacturer had to provide a "Declaration Of Conformity" and so on.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/work-equipment-machinery/declaration-conformity.htm

Stories like the OP just paint the good Chinese companies with the same brush sadly. 

 

[apprentice87]

Hi All,

First off, trading standards are a complete and utter waste of time. Depends on how much money the "defendant" has:

NONE;  they will pursue you to the ends of the earth.

LOTS; They will leave well alone as long as you remember to mention the magic words; "i will see you in court" With this they will simply give up, NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU CAN PROVE YOU ARE IN THE RIGHT.

So far as i know, you CANNOT sell machinery here, new or used, unless it is CE marked, end of.

Visa card charge back as soon as you can, tell the seller to come and collect his junk or it will be stored for 6 weeks at HIS expense, then scrapped.

Not a problem.. Let the seller try to sue the buyer if he wants, somehow, i doubt he will.

john..

 

[Blue Duck]

Thought CE stood for Chinese Export?

:slap

...someone had too

Edit: scoobed '87 for the no nonsense approach.

 

[Sharpend]

What details were provided prior to sale? Any mention of non conformity?

I'd imagine that there would be redress under the sale of goods act, as the items are not fit for purpose, non compliant to uk standards?

As others suggest claim to credit card company.

 

[Sidewinder]

Onoff,

The only requirement for lodging the technical file with an NB is if the machine falls under Annexe 4, then it has to be checked by them also for compliance.

If it is not an Annexe 4 machine then you can self certify and compile a technical file as required.

The only persons who can demand to see the technical file are the relevant HSE enforcement body, e.g. HSE in the UK.

You also have a reasonable time to generate this file, as it does not have to be compiled prior to it being required.

For serial build machines the information must be held on file for a period after the last of the serial build machines is completed & sold.

If the company goes into liquidation, all information etc. is lost.

There is and can be no recourse to generate the technical file, or provide the information.

A word to the user.

HSE WILL go after the employer using the equipment under PUWER98, rather than after the machine importer or builder.

It is easier for them to prove and enforce non compliance with UK regulations against a UK company, than perhaps an overseas company against international laws.

How do I know?

From meetings with the HSE on exactly this topic.

CE marking was part of my job at my last employer, (A Global "Blue Chip" industrial controls manufacturer) and PUWER98 & CE marking is and is becoming more of a part of my current business.

 

[OnOff]

Onoff,

The only requirement for lodging the technical file with an NB is if the machine falls under Annexe 4, then it has to be checked by them also for compliance.

If it is not an Annexe 4 machine then you can self certify and compile a technical file as required.

The only persons who can demand to see the technical file are the relevant HSE enforcement body, e.g. HSE in the UK.

You also have a reasonable time to generate this file, as it does not have to be compiled prior to it being required.

For serial build machines the information must be held on file for a period after the last of the serial build machines is completed & sold.

If the company goes into liquidation, all information etc. is lost.

There is and can be no recourse to generate the technical file, or provide the information.

A word to the user.

HSE WILL go after the employer using the equipment under PUWER98, rather than after the machine importer or builder.

It is easier for them to prove and enforce non compliance with UK regulations against a UK company, than perhaps an overseas company against international laws.

How do I know?

From meetings with the HSE on exactly this topic.

CE marking was part of my job at my last employer, (A Global "Blue Chip" industrial controls manufacturer) and PUWER98 & CE marking is and is becoming more of a part of my current business.

Yes it was Annex IV stuff which is why we had to go through the process!

 

[pewter]

I thought it had to be CE marked. When he told me BSI said CE marking is voluntary i was surprised.

Thanks Mr Snake,   will look up MD, EMCD, & LVD.

 

[steptoe]

Steps, it's not the responsibility of BSI to comment on individual cases.

oh,

I always thought BSI was British Standards Institute and it had to meet their requirements.

jaysus, how wrong can you be,

Im starting to give up on all these letters and standards nowadays. 

 

[pewter]

Update.

The seller today came and refunded the full amount and collected the machinery.

My friend mentioned CE marks and legal action to the seller.  The seller went from offering 60% refund, to 90% refund, my friend insisted on a full refund and he got one. I think he was quite lucky he got out of the situation. He is now buying equipment from what appears to be a leading importer/supplier who has everything CE marked.

Thanks for every ones help,

 

[Sidewinder]

Pewter,

Just remind him that he still has responsibilities under PUWER98 to ensure that the kit is safe for his people to use once it is installed & commissioned, which obviously must be done in a competent manner.

 

[pewter]

My friend got an email back from HSE today. Better late then never.

Thank you for your recent enquiry regarding CE marking and supply of machinery which has been passed through to HSE's Product Safety Unit.
 
If you have a concern that the equipment you refer to does not comply with UK law, HSE website hse.gov.uk/work-equipment-machinery/report-defective-product gives advice on how to report defective work equipment or machinery.
 
In relation to this my colleague Roger Upfold would be happy to speak with you, if you could forward your contact telephone number he will try to contact you either later on today or during the coming week.
 
Thank you