Advice required please urgently

[Robbio]

An electrician has fit a new fuse panel (Twin rcd etc) and it's tripping with one of my TV's plugged into the ring main, but only if the aerial is plugged into the TV (I have a tv loft box and sky+ with tv eye links).

He's blaiming my gadgets (computers, X10, pc's etc, but I unplugged them all), but his 'tester' friend said it's an earth fault and found a high reading on the earth test, getting higher further away from the fuse box.

The tester guy has suggested to earth one of the high rated sockets back to the radiators as a test, and also to take all the sockets off and look for a broken or loose earth. My electrician seems to want more for this service, even though he told me before and during the job that his price was expensive compared to buying a panel in B&Q as we are paying for his time and that sometimes these jobs take days to find a fault in a socket... sounds like he said the scenario we hit, but now wants extra.

Couple of questions,

1) Does it sound like an earth fault?

2) Should this be included in the job of fitting the new panel?

3) Is having a 'tester' sign off the work normal, or does this mean he's not fully qualified?

4) Is he allowed to pull the leccy boards main fuse out of the leccy boards inlet?

thanks for any advice offered guys...

 

[M107]

1) Does it sound like an earth fault?

More likely to be the unit in the loft at fault as the rcd only trips when the unit is plugged in. But without being there to test the installation its a difficult one to reply on.

2) Should this be included in the job of fitting the new panel?

Well he would have been better off testing the whole installation before fitting the new consumer unit, I do a few quick tests when I go to price up the work. That way most problems can be identified & a price agreed upon to have them fixed while the consumer unit is changed. He can not issue an Electrical Installation Certificate for an installation that fails testing after changing the consumer unit.

3) Is having a 'tester' sign off the work normal, or does this mean he's not fully qualified?

Ask him if he is qualified? but I bet you find he himself isnt part P registered but his mate is, hence his mate is testing & certing the work. most scheme operators for part P do not like 3rd party testing & notification of electrical work.

4) Is he allowed to pull the leccy boards main fuse out of the leccy boards inlet?

Only the DNO & their approved contractors are allowed to pull the main fuse (service cutout). Having said that (now whispering) we all work safely by pulling the service fuse to isolate the installation & supply tails. I personally call the DNO & inform them of the reason for service fuse pulling & a re-seal is required at the address.

 

[NozSpark]

Sometimes when we change a board there might be faults on the installation that the old board couldn't "see " new boards are much better. This fault should have been picked up during his testing when he changed the board, however if it is a faulty appliance then it wouldn't be.... any faults would nerd to be either disconnected or repaired at EXTRA cost, its not our fault that your Electrics are faulty.

My guess is that he's not part p registered so gets someone else in to test and sign off his work... that I'd against the other fellas scheme rules and if found out he could be kicked out.

Removing the main fuse isnt right, but how else can he work safely on the supply cables?

 

[m4tty]

An earth leakage clamp meter would be useful on this one I recon?

 

[Tooold]

1) If the loft socket is on its own circuit it could be faulty wiring as well as the appliance. Try to plug something else in and see if it trips then.

2) I always charged extra for faults and made sure the customer knew this before, depending on installation i may have done some tests before but not often.

3) No different to a large company having only 1 or 2 testers and many electricians. It is however frowned upon by part p scammers. At least its being tested. he may or may not be qualified to test or be an electrician.

4) Most do it, allegedly!

 

[Robbio]

Thanks for replies so far guys.

I should add that the RCD tripped only on the side of the ring main, not the loft circuit. All other tv's are plugged into the aerial system and don't pop the RCD.

Even if the TV is faulty (unlikely but possible, it's only 14months old). The high test reading is present without the TV being plugged in... so it's not the cause of the earth fault, it's just possibly a trigger

Also, he ripped the old fusebox out without looking inside the house barely, no testing or anything, which also made me curios at the time... and he left all the old bits in a box in the garage / splattered around the floor

 

[sparkytim]

Sounds as it your Loft socket MAY have a borrowed nuetral from another circuit, or has not been wired correctly in some other way.

 

[SPECIAL LOCATION]

An electrician has fit a new fuse panel (Twin rcd etc) and it's tripping with one of my TV's plugged into the ring main, but only if the aerial is plugged into the TV (I have a tv loft box and sky+ with tv eye links).

On the face of it this sounds like an appliance fault rather than a circuit wiring fault.

He's blaiming my gadgets (computers' date=' X10, pc's etc, but I unplugged them all),

[/quote']

Is this a contradiction? you just said it trips with your TV plugged in? but now nothings plugged in?

but his 'tester' friend said it's an earth fault and found a high reading on the earth test' date=' getting higher further away from the fuse box.

[/quote']

Either you've misunderstood something you were told or someone is trying to waffle you here cus that bit sounds like tosh IMHO?

The tester guy has suggested to earth one of the high rated sockets back to the radiators as a test' date='

[/quote']

More tosh IMHO.

and also to take all the sockets off and look for a broken or loose earth.

This sounds like a sensible suggestion.

My electrician seems to want more for this service' date='

[/quote']

Well if it wasn't part of the original contracted schedule of works then that sounds normal to me.

even though he told me before and during the job that his price was expensive compared to buying a panel in B&Q as we are paying for his time and that sometimes these jobs take days to find a fault in a socket... sounds like he said the scenario we hit' date=' but now wants extra.

[/quote']

What did it say on your agreed contract for the work?

Did you have a written contract agreement?

If you take you car to the garage for a service..

do you expect them to do a full tyre replacement, fill the fuel tank, wash polish & wax & full internal valet for the price of the service????

Couple of questions' date='

1) Does it sound like an earth fault?

2) Should this be included in the job of fitting the new panel?

3) Is having a 'tester' sign off the work normal, or does this mean he's not fully qualified?

[/quote']

Did you have a formal contract for the works

general good practice recommends this

e.g.

http://www.niceic.com/Uploads/File1249.pdf

Without a formal contract it is a bit up in the air as to what bits are or aren't included in the price you paid.

The Electrical Safety Council publishes a "best practice guide" with typical guidance as to procedures for changing a domestic consumer unit..

http://www.esc.org.uk/pdfs/business-and-community/electrical-industry/BPG6_09.pdf

It is intended for electricians but it may give you some guidance as to if you electrician has followed industry typical guidance.

4) Is he allowed to pull the leccy boards main fuse out of the leccy boards inlet?

thanks for any advice offered guys...

What relevance does this point have on your RCD tripping?

sound like someone is dissatisfied with some work and looking for any and all items whether relevant or not?

(Some DNO's may give permission to remove the cut out' date=' then arrange to come back later and re-seal, there are procedures and methods to arrange for a temporary disconnection, these can be found on the website of your DNO.)

Is you electrician a member of one of the approved contractor bodies?

NICEIC, NAPIT, ELECSA, BSI etc?????

If yes and you are dissatisfied I suspect they will have a complaints procedure you can follow?

How long ago was the work done?

when did the faults start occurring?

Have you got copies of the electrical installation certificate?

have you got a building regs compliance certificate?

It is impossible for anyone to solve a probably cause for this without coming out and doing some tests...

Can you post copies of the test readings on the electrical certificate..

This may point to a likely suspect?

Oh..

welcome to the forum!

:Welcome: :coffee

p.s.

If you have no formal contract AND he is NOT a member of any approved scheme then as the ole saying goes..

you get what you pay for!

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 17:33 ---------- Previous post was made at 17:24 ----------

Just to also add some computing appliance are by their very nature high leakage appliances and having multiple items connected onto one circuit can cause RCD tripping problems...

This can be an issue in school and college classrooms with a lot of computers & monitors plugged in simultaneously.

AND another point for consideration, many home entertainment appliances are actually Double insulated,

i.e. powered via a flat 2-core flex with NO earth connection!

So they can have difficulty introducing earth leakage faults to trip RCDs! :|

 

[ProDave]

This is simple.

Firstly, lets assume the sockets are wired correctly, surely the electrician must have tested them.

So if the tv is fine with no aerial lead, but trips the RCD when you plug in an aerial, then the TV is at fault.

The tv should be double insulated, and there should be no connection from the mains input to the aerial socket.

But the fact plugging the aerial lead in trips it, shows there IS a connection and it causes an imbalance.

How old it the tv? what's it's make and model? is it an old CRT set or an LCD or plasma.

Almost certainly the aerial lead is just earthed somewhere. I doubt there's anything wrong with the distribution box in the loft. Even if the box were introducing a voltage to the aerial lead, no current should flow to L or N as the aerial socket on a tv is supposed to be isolated.

As another test, instead of plugging in the aerial lead, just connect a piece of wire from a radiator pipe (earth) to the tv aerial socket. I'm willing to bet that will trip the RCD just like the aerial cable does, and prove that it's the tv at fault.

 

[Andy™]

It is however frowned upon by part p scammers.

its not just frowned on. part p clearly states that a 3rd party cannot notify

 

[Robbio]

Sounds as it your Loft socket MAY have a borrowed nuetral from another circuit, or has not been wired correctly in some other way.

ive tested that by running an extension cable reel from the hall socket ( which is on the ring main) to the loft and moving the loft equipment onto that, same result sadly... i also tried leaving it all plugged into the reel, but unplugging the reel from the hall, same result again, trip rcd.

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:20 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:16 ----------

This is simple.Firstly, lets assume the sockets are wired correctly, surely the electrician must have tested them.

So if the tv is fine with no aerial lead, but trips the RCD when you plug in an aerial, then the TV is at fault.

The tv should be double insulated, and there should be no connection from the mains input to the aerial socket.

But the fact plugging the aerial lead in trips it, shows there IS a connection and it causes an imbalance.

How old it the tv? what's it's make and model? is it an old CRT set or an LCD or plasma.

Almost certainly the aerial lead is just earthed somewhere. I doubt there's anything wrong with the distribution box in the loft. Even if the box were introducing a voltage to the aerial lead, no current should flow to L or N as the aerial socket on a tv is supposed to be isolated.

As another test, instead of plugging in the aerial lead, just connect a piece of wire from a radiator pipe (earth) to the tv aerial socket. I'm willing to bet that will trip the RCD just like the aerial cable does, and prove that it's the tv at fault.

He didn't test all the sockets, only a couple after the issues, with a plug in light up device. He didnt test any before starting work.

The 'tester' guy tested 4 sockets, and the further away he got from the fuse box, the worse the result.

I've moved the tv into the lounge using that power and tv aerial, same result again.

I then plugged the aerial into the tv, but touched the other end to the metal radiator pipe and the tv stayed on, as did the RCD..

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:24 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:20 ----------

1) If the loft socket is on its own circuit it could be faulty wiring as well as the appliance. Try to plug something else in and see if it trips then.2) I always charged extra for faults and made sure the customer knew this before, depending on installation i may have done some tests before but not often.

3) No different to a large company having only 1 or 2 testers and many electricians. It is however frowned upon by part p scammers. At least its being tested. he may or may not be qualified to test or be an electrician.

4) Most do it, allegedly!

When the loft sockets were on the other side of the fusebox, it was the ring main rcd that tripped, not the loft side. They are both now on the same side. I've not tried anything else in the loft, apart from the switch and cctv stuff that are already up there,,, i could take a kettle etc for major drain test, but i suspect it's more about the ring main than the loft as isolating the loft power still lets the tv trip the ring rcd

Im not disregarding your ideas, just telling you what testing I already did..

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:26 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:24 ----------

An earth leakage clamp meter would be useful on this one I recon?

tell me more please.......?

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:29 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:26 ----------

Hi

no contract, not sure on his quals either, as he was ripping the old board out before i got a word in almost.. His company advertise part p etc,but i suspect they just use a 3rd party guy , or the partner who is away has the part p.. I will ask though, he wants to drop off certs tomorrow (and collect cash for job).

Seems to me I'm in a stronger position to question him before I pay , thats why I came to your forum, you guys clearly know what you are talking about. I appreciate it;s very hard for you to diagnose my problem without being here and knowing all the facts.

 

[steptoe]

IF everything works fine until you plug in your TV and plug the aerial into it then its YOUR faulty appliance that is causing the RCD to trip,

its quite simple logic really,

oh, and as for getting a "worse" earth reading the further away from the "fusebox" , that is perfectly normal,

I wonder what you mean by "worse", do you know the readings he was getting? do you know what readings he should be expecting to get?

some premises would have a questionable reading of 0.8 , others would be acceptable with a reading of 20.0, there is much more to it than just a number.

lots of variables come into play,

 

[NozSpark]

Check him out!

Local Authority Building Control - HOME

He may be using his personal or a trading name though, so it could be difficult to find him

 

[steptoe]

ive tested that by running an extension cable reel from the hall socket ( which is on the ring main) to the loft and moving the loft equipment onto that, same result sadly... i also tried leaving it all plugged into the reel, but unplugging the reel from the hall, same result again, trip rcd.---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:20 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:16 ----------

He didn't test all the sockets, only a couple after the issues, with a plug in light up device. He didnt test any before starting work.

The 'tester' guy tested 4 sockets, and the further away he got from the fuse box, the worse the result.

I've moved the tv into the lounge using that power and tv aerial, same result again.

I then plugged the aerial into the tv, but touched the other end to the metal radiator pipe and the tv stayed on, as did the RCD..

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:24 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:20 ----------

When the loft sockets were on the other side of the fusebox, it was the ring main rcd that tripped, not the loft side. They are both now on the same side. I've not tried anything else in the loft, apart from the switch and cctv stuff that are already up there,,, i could take a kettle etc for major drain test, but i suspect it's more about the ring main than the loft as isolating the loft power still lets the tv trip the ring rcd

Im not disregarding your ideas, just telling you what testing I already did..

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:26 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:24 ----------

tell me more please.......?

---------- Post Auto-Merged at 20:29 ---------- Previous post was made at 20:26 ----------

Hi

no contract, not sure on his quals either, as he was ripping the old board out before i got a word in almost.. His company advertise part p etc,but i suspect they just use a 3rd party guy , or the partner who is away has the part p.. I will ask though, he wants to drop off certs tomorrow (and collect cash for job).

Seems to me I'm in a stronger position to question him before I pay , thats why I came to your forum, you guys clearly know what you are talking about. I appreciate it;s very hard for you to diagnose my problem without being here and knowing all the facts.

how are you isolating this.?

simply turning OFF the MCB is not adequate isolation in this kind of situation.

 

[Andy™]

^^ mostly what he says. most TV's there days are DI so cannot cause an earth fault. but it does sound like something plugged in thats at fault.

and if its a radial, then readings will always get 'worse' further away from the board

 

[steptoe]

this guy could be in a partnership with his mate that does the testing, just that maybe his mate was doing PIRs or something on the day the CU was changed,

no different to any large company where the T&I guy doesnt actually see every clip being banged in.

 

[ProDave]

I've moved the tv into the lounge using that power and tv aerial, same result again.I then plugged the aerial into the tv, but touched the other end to the metal radiator pipe and the tv stayed on, as did the RCD..

Interesting.

Next you (or the electrician) needs to use a volt meter to check what, if any voltage is on the aerial lead coming down from the loft box. There should be none.

I suspect you may actually have TWO faults, one with the tv, and one with the loft box.

But it still boils down to YOUR equipment at fault.

 

[Robbio]

[quote name='Andy

 

[steptoe]

Andy, do you have a link to a part p document that advises this please?

as I said, he may NOT be a 3rd party, he may work for the same firm.

its perfectly legal in that way,

and if you have no contract it might as well have been Joe from the pub that done it as far as you can prove.

 

[alchemist]

[quote name='Andy